Mk II Kingston - Poll

[toxicavenger]

I honestly have not had the best email response from Bill in the past when he was selling parts and also when he starting selling watches. So that stopped me from buying directly from him.

With the Kingston it was crazy how he supposedly had so many issues with the watches coming from his Swiss assemblers that he had to do more work to them. So what was the point of sending them to the Swiss if they made more work for him but not his watches from Asia??

Also for a watch that was pre-paid it took way to long to get a return on your investment.

If Bill can't handle the orders than he needs to face that fact and state that. I would personally pay less for a watch that I knew I was going to get sometime in year then to listen to excuses from someone on why they can't deliver. And I would definitely not wait on a watch that long and believe the reason why is because he QC is so tight, if that is true then maybe he needs to get better watchmakers for his customers.

If anyone says the release of the Nassau wasn't a slap in the face to Kingston owners then you are blind.

LumTec does allot better job (also great QC) and with a more original design than Bill does.

[CGSshorty]

LumTec does allot better job (also great QC) and with a more original design than Bill does.

This is very true, but the quality is not even remotely close.

[toxicavenger]

LumTec does allot better job (also great QC) and with a more original design than Bill does.

This is very true, but the quality is not even remotely close.

your right, neither is the price.

[CGSshorty]

LumTec does allot better job (also great QC) and with a more original design than Bill does.

This is very true, but the quality is not even remotely close.

your right, neither is the price.

Have you looked at LT lately? Their prices have climbed quite a bit and the quality of their movements has gone down. I still ljke them but I won't pay them nearly $1k for a watch with a very basic Seiko movement.

[namor]

your right, neither is the price.

This is not unimportant in the discussion. When MKII sold the Blackwater or the Sea Fighter copies in the $600 range, you were getting excellent quality at a fair price - given the competing choices. With the current prices, the watches he sells are average quality for the price - meaning the quality is great, but so is everyone else at that price point. Don't forget, the MKIIs aren't perfect - lots of Kingstons were returned with stem issues, for example.

As to customer service pre-Kingston: isn't it just a bit ironic that this company (which began by making pieces to modify existing watches) absolutely refused (and continues to refuse) to sell its own customers any spare parts to mod the watches they bought? If you own a Sea Fighter with a divers timing bezel, he will NOT sell you a 12 hour bezel/bezel insert to allow you to modify your watch. Or a handset to go from Ploprof to Mercedes. Etc.

We live in a Golden Age of watches, where there are dozens of small companies filling every imaginable niche of WIS desire. My business will continue to flow to those companies that appreciate my interest and treat it respectfully.

[justsellbrgs]

your right, neither is the price.

This is not unimportant in the discussion. When MKII sold the Blackwater or the Sea Fighter copies in the $600 range, you were getting excellent quality at a fair price - given the competing choices. With the current prices, the watches he sells are average quality for the price - meaning the quality is great, but so is everyone else at that price point. Don't forget, the MKIIs aren't perfect - lots of Kingstons were returned with stem issues, for example.

As to customer service pre-Kingston: isn't it just a bit ironic that this company (which began by making pieces to modify existing watches) absolutely refused (and continues to refuse) to sell its own customers any spare parts to mod the watches they bought? If you own a Sea Fighter with a divers timing bezel, he will NOT sell you a 12 hour bezel/bezel insert to allow you to modify your watch. Or a handset to go from Ploprof to Mercedes. Etc.

We live in a Golden Age of watches, where there are dozens of small companies filling every imaginable niche of WIS desire. My business will continue to flow to those companies that appreciate my interest and treat it respectfully.

seth, I've read many posts you have made here and on the MKII forum...... I agree with the majority of your comments. Took me a while..... I have had the Blackwater, Seafighter, Stingray, Vantage, and the Kingston... sold them all. Didn;t lose money on any either....... some time ago I was a fan of Bill and the MKII products

All solid watches, well built..... but as I found other brands my fanaticism for MKII died down.... I still like the watches, but at the right price and availability.... if he had delivered the Kingston in a year or a year and a half I may still have it and others from MKII, but the Kingston situation sealed the deal for me.

Pricing has also forced me to look elsewhere.... at +$1K I can;t rationalize..... I understand his price structure, but I'm happier with others well under that price... gimme something assembled by JAKE for sub $300 or stretch into a Tsunami for $500-600 and I'm fine.

[gonzomantis]

If anyone says the release of the Nassau wasn't a slap in the face to Kingston owners then you are blind.

You can say that again. Not only did he release it, be he then found an issue with the crown, so he broke his promise of having the 8mm Kingston crown be a limited-edition-only part.

I was so pissed I wrote a long post, but I just filed it away. The short of it - how can MKII maintain customer satisfaction when they deliver watches for new orders before meeting commitments for orders that have been paid in full for over a year?

[fastward]

Wait for the Bremont.

The Kingston will last as long as the Golden Eye did.

[gonzomantis]

As to customer service pre-Kingston: isn't it just a bit ironic that this company (which began by making pieces to modify existing watches) absolutely refused (and continues to refuse) to sell its own customers any spare parts to mod the watches they bought? If you own a Sea Fighter with a divers timing bezel, he will NOT sell you a 12 hour bezel/bezel insert to allow you to modify your watch. Or a handset to go from Ploprof to Mercedes. Etc.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

From the MKII forum:

“The most important thing is that I am going to be quite a bit disappointed and annoyed if these Nassaus end up with Kingston dial and hand sets from the parts kits. I also think that the GO customers are going to be agitated if that happens. So let me just say if these Nassaus are modified into Kingstons the warranty will be void and we won't even touch them if they ever need to come back. (I really don't mean to sound like a hard ass...I don't begrudge those customers that sold their Kingstons for a profit but modifying the Nassau would be crossing the line in mind.)”

[fastward]

If I were waiting on a Kingston per-order, I would be upset that the Nassau is being released before some of the remaining Kingstons. That is a big mistake, that should be easily avoided.

I think that it's just another example of a skilled individual that has poor business acumen

[tmw]

If I were waiting on a Kingston per-order, I would be upset that the Nassau is being released before some of the remaining Kingstons. That is a big mistake, that should be easily avoided.

I personally believe that the whole mkii thing is bordering on a joke. Bill is a good guy, but he is just not delivering and needs to open his eyes to this. Whatever business model he has is just frankly broke. Realize it and fix it.

The kingston debacle is one thing. Then he continues with the Nassau, project 300, gmt, and people are still drinking the cool aid, and basically shipping him money on a promise somewhere in the next decade something will come.

Build it and they will come? It is just the opposite. Pay me, and sometime in the future, I will deliver you something.

And even worse, every single post that says "it is worth the wait, and just part of being a mkii customer, and his quality is worth it" is just about smoking something funny. I give someone the right to take my money and not deliver? I think the product is "waiting" and the satisfaction is not getting the watch, but the feeling of anticipation - and the quality experience is the longer the wait, the better the waiting. He is selling a "promise." Afterall, how many are flipped the day you get them?

And I had two kingstons on order. I cancelled the minute I saw the nassau come out. It was just rubbing salt into the wound.

[deepcdvr]

While the quality on the MKII is very good, its not any better than Helson, or Steinhart, or a RockX. I've owned two Kingstons, so I have seen it first hand. The bigger problem with the Kingston (or Nassau for that matter) is its a copy of a famous watch. All of his products are copies of military inspired real watches without any true military DNA. Its not a stand alone in that sense, and it would never have been made if it didn't harken to the early James Bond movies (read the creation threads on the MKII forum if you don't accept that). So its a cool purchase for about a day and a half, and then you feel sheepish for wearing a pretend James Bond watch. Especially if you own a Rolex Sub, too, and realize the distinctions. Bill is not alone in facing this problem, but he is the most egregious, and has - hands down - the worst customer service in the entire WIS world. Why spend your money with someone who can't or won't even give you a timeline for the delivery of your already 100% paid for watch?

Damn, Seth.. Welcome to DWC!

I've decided not to wear replica...err, 'homage' watches any more. I've been through dozens of them over the years and they just don't last. They are fun for a while, but the 'honeymoon' is short lived. Of course I don't keep the expensive ones that long either, but in my defense, I am proud to wear them whereas the cheaper/homage pieces make me feel a little slimy

[ikkoku]

agreed that Bill f*cked up royally with the Kingston and it turned off a segment of the WIS community with the way the project was funded and the delay after delay. but i'd blame that more on Bill, while being a highly skilled watch person, not having the skill set to run the business-facing side of such a venture. it wouldn't be the first time that a highly regarded and well respected enthusiast in a field failed in running a business in the best way.

but aside from the Kingston fiasco and the long lead times (which inevitably got pushed out just a little more) on his custom orders, Bill''s customer service was very good. at least, i don't recall anything negative aside from griping from buyers waiting for their custom pieces. so to say that MKII has the worst customer service is exaggerated imo.

well I haven't seen a RockX, but i would disagree that MKII isn't any better than the Helson, Steinhart, and the Raven. the one thing that Bill was undisputably uncompromising about is that he always set a high standard on any vision he has about putting a watch for production. i'd be more trusting in him doing a better watch than any of those brands mentioned.

the Kingston commands the price premium over the other lookalikes mentioned in this thread (Raven?...really) because of the limited quantity and the MKII reputation, even before we get into comparing quality. personally, i probably wouldn't pay the current market price of the Kingston (because i don't have a hard-on for the watch that it hommages), but then again i wouldn't buy the others because to me they're at best, a lesser compromise. and making lesser compromises for a watch at this price point is not someting that i would care to do. if you don't have the funds or the inclination to buy the Kingston and you'd rather pay for the cheaper clones, then be honest and say so. and i guess if you don't like MKII for some other reason, that's fine too.

ps. i appreciate good customer service as much as the next guy, but imo it doesn't take a genius for a small watch company to figure out that it's important. so i'm a little dumbfounded when someone uses an argument that a [micro] brand has great customer service, whatever that's supposed to mean, as a particularly strong reason to buy their hommage when they don't have much anything else as a bonafide in this business.

that's funny to hear that he has good customer service because I've had the exact opposite experience. I'm still waiting for him to reply to my multiple calls, voicemails and emails from January 2009.
and at one point in one of his threads on his forums, he just said that he will reply to his emails in a last in first out basis.... so everyone who tried to contact him earlier gets shafted.

[fastward]

that's funny to hear that he has good customer service because I've had the exact opposite experience. I'm still waiting for him to reply to my multiple calls, voicemails and emails from January 2009.
and at one point in one of his threads on his forums, he just said that he will reply to his emails in a last in first out basis.... so everyone who tried to contact him earlier gets shafted.

A "last in first out" policy is the worst way to respond to email. It encourages people to send multiple emails asking the same question, further aggravating the problem.

Pre-owned seems like the way to go with his watches.

[Jeep99dad]

Yeah but 1400$ for a pre owned Kingston is $$$ especially if I gotta worry about CS.
I kinda gave up on it though I'd like a Nassau the whole MkII Kool aid and experiences from folks like in this thread turn me off the brand unfortunately.

[Porto]

Thanks to all of you. I always refused to buy a hommage, but when I saw the Kingston I was really excited.
So I only now thought about a pre owned one or another MK2 watch, as they seem to be of a different quality
than all the Helson, Steinhart etc. hommage watches. Reading through this thread I am not that fascinated
anymore...

[marchone]

I bought one of the last Mk II LRRP Milsub HRVs. I wanted to like it more than I did. Three issues stood out. One was the case was too tall at 13.5mm to take a NATO well. The second was the HRV was installed at 8 o'clock and the piston was in at an angle. It bugged me every time I glanced at the time. The last was the bezel only had 60 clicks and wasn't as tight as it could have been. It came on a Bonetto Cinturini rubber strap.

I bought an Armida A2 500M PVD (ETA 2824) the same month for almost half the cost of the Mk II. 120 clicks, C3 lume, good PVD coating, well made steel bracelet. Better value than the Mk II by far. I'm kicking myself for selling that one.

[namor]

Not to beat a dead horse unnecessarily, but...

A Seiko SBDX001, the 300M MarineMaster, is a HOMAGE to the Seiko 6159-7001 300M diver from the '60s; an Omega 1200M Ploprof is an HOMAGE to the Omega 600M made famous by Cousteau; and, a IWC Vintage Aquatimer (VAT) is an HOMAGE to the '60s twin crown Aquatimer. The Kingston is a COPY of a Rolex design; the Vantage is a COPY of a Rolex design; and, the Blackwater is a COPY of a Benrus design.

[425ranger]

General rule of thumb, never buy a micro to flip, only to keep.

[demer03]

Had a Blackwater I bought from Steve (tallguy). Nice watch for $425.

Would buy one again.

[T.R.]

Not to beat a dead horse unnecessarily, but...

A Seiko SBDX001, the 300M MarineMaster, is a HOMAGE to the Seiko 6159-7001 300M diver from the '60s; an Omega 1200M Ploprof is an HOMAGE to the Omega 600M made famous by Cousteau; and, a IWC Vintage Aquatimer (VAT) is an HOMAGE to the '60s twin crown Aquatimer. The Kingston is a COPY of a Rolex design; the Vantage is a COPY of a Rolex design; and, the Blackwater is a COPY of a Benrus design.

Solid.

[Beardo]

I signed up for a Project 300 plank in August 2010. In September 2012, I finally asked for my deposit back. To his credit, Bill was responsive and apologized for the long wait. I probably could have saved up and gotten an actual vintage Seamaster in that timeframe. Of course, I promptly signed up for a Typhoon. But I am guessing the wait will still only be measured in months, rather than years.

[Axelay2003]

I got on the PanAm white dial wait list, but I am kinda glad I didn't get on the actual reservation list. Overpriced for the watch you get. I figured, I just save more and get the DWC Ennebi forum watch.

[Galpo]

I've had the Kingston for almost 2 years now. When it arrived I was already pissed after waiting so long but got over it, partially. Visiting the MKII every day looking for news turned into a routine even after I got it . Needless to say I was not going to do it again with the P300 or the PanAm.

I sometimes feel, like other people have said, that wearing a homage watch like the Kingston is fun, it has a very high quality feel, but it's also a reminder for me that I didn't get the real thing. And that part is making me wear it less and less.





Through iPhone

[425ranger]

.....wearing a homage watch like the Kingston is fun, it has a very high quality feel, but it's also a reminder for me that I didn't get the real thing.

Couldn't have said it better.


All the best, Bill