Who needs Fricker?

[sierra11b]

Don't want to read too much into it but I wonder if Smith and Wesson could crank out a few forged or MIM cases? If we all put out brains and wallets together we can build a Scandium version of Project 300 still many years before Yao and have 50% more of its components made outside of China.

http://www.swpc.com

[Ryeguy]

I've said it before... Growing up near the Pratt and Whitney plant in East Hartford, I'm certain there are dozens of aviation quality machine shops out there who could handle the job of machining a watch case. The question is just cost, not qualifications.

[sierra11b]

Well maybe this is where certain SOF-backed brands failed. Yes, back in the day Fricker would be the ultimate go-to, but now with a digital CNC schematic, it seems as if anyone could produce the same results.

We've got enough LEO and steely-eyed veterans here to market a S&W case. How cool would that be?! I'd love a black finish Scandium watch head to match my TRR8.

It's likely that S&W might be catering to larger accounts, but given the times and all my years of experience with them and their CS, I wonder if they'd discourage a smaller account in that they're always happy send you a two-way shipping label at a moments notice for any repair, or service in some cases.

[Grahamcombat]

In the weapons industry S&W has been the OEM for other major firearms companies for decades.

[toxicavenger]

I've said it before... Growing up near the Pratt and Whitney plant in East Hartford, I'm certain there are dozens of aviation quality machine shops out there who could handle the job of machining a watch case. The question is just cost, not qualifications.

Like Kobold's Daddy?

[JP Chestnut]

I've said it before... Growing up near the Pratt and Whitney plant in East Hartford, I'm certain there are dozens of aviation quality machine shops out there who could handle the job of machining a watch case. The question is just cost, not qualifications.

I totally agree. I grew up in and around machine shops that serviced aerospace clients. A watch case is nothing.

[gwells]

i have to imagine--not having done it, but having some vague idea on how these processes work--that there would need to be a decent volume to get this to the point where it would make any financial sense.

like many other production processes, a big chunk of the cost is in the setup and proofing process. to put really random numbers on it, if the proofing and setup process cost $50,000, then each case costs $50 to machine once the process is up and running, then making 50 cases would be $1050k/case. Making 1000 cases would be $105/case. what those actual numbers are would be a mystery to me, i haven't ever done metal milling work. but there can be a huge shift in cost per piece once you get to a certain level of volume, and below that it's just prohibitive to do.

i run into this with printing all the time and it drives me nuts trying to get my clients to understand why one custom hardcover book might cost them $150-200, but 10 would cost them $250-300. and 100 would be $750.

[Ryeguy]

I've said it before... Growing up near the Pratt and Whitney plant in East Hartford, I'm certain there are dozens of aviation quality machine shops out there who could handle the job of machining a watch case. The question is just cost, not qualifications.

Like Kobold's Daddy?

I think the answer lies someplace between this and Greg's statement. Kobold's father, as an instruments maker, certainly had the means to machine watch cases. The question is, does he have the excess manufacturing capacity to absorb the set up costs (as Greg describes) to do so?

My guess is no, he doesn't, and in doing the math, he probably found he makes more profit on manufacturing instruments than watch cases for his son.

It is an interesting thought though. You would've thought Mike Kobold would've had access to the father's machine shop and machinists. It would've been far easier to simply add a line or shift to an existing manufacturing facility than to establish a separate shop in some Amish country farm. Maybe the father recognized something sooner than any of us?

[foxint]

Wow - learn something new each day. S&W...interesting.

Thanks - I knew there was some good reason I was drawn to you guys....

[fastward]

Isn’t KW in the same building as Kobold Instruments?

[Selym]

Isn’t KW in the same building as Kobold Instruments?

Kobold Expedition Tools
767 Leesburg Station Road
Volant, PA 16156
U.S.A.

[toxicavenger]

Isn’t KW in the same building as Kobold Instruments?

Kobold Expedition Tools
767 Leesburg Station Road
Volant, PA 16156
U.S.A.

Use to be. Now they are in an abandon barn

[R@cerx]

Isn’t KW in the same building as Kobold Instruments?

Kobold Expedition Tools
767 Leesburg Station Road
Volant, PA 16156
U.S.A.

Use to be. Now they are in an abandon barn

As it should be.

[Watchout2018]

Fricker doesnt make the cases entirely either. They design and then create machinable drawings. Out source stamped blanks in many cases and then do some of the finish machining, drilling of the lugs, engraving of bezels, chamfering, fluting, then the cases goto another company for the final surface finish and or coating. Crowns, crown tubes, lug bars, crystals, gaskets, bezel retaining springs, bezel click springs are all out sourced. Then all comes back to fricker to be assembled into a complete case only or a complete watch head with dial hands and movement Depending on the customers requirements. I am not knocking them just explaining how to works. A lot of companies today have the same manufacturing model. Making a good quality watchcase is not quite as easy as some have speculated here. It’s also not the most complicated by far.

[sierra11b]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

[deepcdvr]

Fricker doesnt make the cases entirely either. They design and then create machinable drawings. Out source stamped blanks in many cases and then do some of the finish machining, drilling of the lugs, engraving of bezels, chamfering, fluting, then the cases goto another company for the final surface finish and or coating. Crowns, crown tubes, lug bars, crystals, gaskets, bezel retaining springs, bezel click springs are all out sourced. Then all comes back to fricker to be assembled into a complete case only or a complete watch head with dial hands and movement Depending on the customers requirements. I am not knocking them just explaining how to works. A lot of companies today have the same manufacturing model. Making a good quality watchcase is not quite as easy as some have speculated here. It’s also not the most complicated by far.

Welcome to DWC

[Watchout2018]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

Well some of the mid cases come as a rough stamping from bar stock, they do all the machining from there. Some are stamped and partially machined before arrival, and some are not stamped but machined to a certain point from either bar stock or round stock and then they finish machined. On a lot of their models they typically machine the bezel and case backs in house then do the engraving before being sent to a final finish company.

As for MIM that's a whole other ball game. This process works great for internal parts for say guns and for very complex shapes that require a very high quantity etc.. and yes S&W would be able to make some of the parts with this method but i doubt it would be cost effective for them considering the small quantity's involved. The drawback for this Method for watches is, say we are talking about Stainless Steel or 316L in the case of most watches. This material while having great corrosion resistance and is non magnetic, is a fairly soft metal that as many of you know can dent and ding very easy. With the same material in the MIM process is even softer than the raw material and is also internally pourous to some degree so it would dent and scratch easier. Also the typical surface finish for MIM is about 32 (RMS) which is better than a cast part but still needs work to get to say a polished or evenly brushed surface. On another note the typical tolerance for MIM is about +/- .003 while that's good for some parts its not going to be for others. There is much more to the MIM process, such as shrinkage, angle, parallelism, minimum wall thickness and other tolerance minimums. I am just giving the basics here as it would pertain to watch case parts. I worked with MIM for a while a few years ago, the process has gotten much better and I am sure there are others here that have more current info than I do.

[JP Chestnut]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

Well some of the mid cases come as a rough stamping from bar stock, they do all the machining from there. Some are stamped and partially machined before arrival, and some are not stamped but machined to a certain point from either bar stock or round stock and then they finish machined. On a lot of their models they typically machine the bezel and case backs in house then do the engraving before being sent to a final finish company.

As for MIM that's a whole other ball game. This process works great for internal parts for say guns and for very complex shapes that require a very high quantity etc.. and yes S&W would be able to make some of the parts with this method but i doubt it would be cost effective for them considering the small quantity's involved. The drawback for this Method for watches is, say we are talking about Stainless Steel or 316L in the case of most watches. This material while having great corrosion resistance and is non magnetic, is a fairly soft metal that as many of you know can dent and ding very easy. With the same material in the MIM process is even softer than the raw material and is also internally pourous to some degree so it would dent and scratch easier. Also the typical surface finish for MIM is about 32 (RMS) which is better than a cast part but still needs work to get to say a polished or evenly brushed surface. On another note the typical tolerance for MIM is about +/- .003 while that's good for some parts its not going to be for others. There is much more to the MIM process, such as shrinkage, angle, parallelism, minimum wall thickness and other tolerance minimums. I am just giving the basics here as it would pertain to watch case parts. I worked with MIM for a while a few years ago, the process has gotten much better and I am sure there are others here that have more current info than I do.

Are you a materials engineer? If so, it's good to have one on the board.

[Watchout2018]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

Well some of the mid cases come as a rough stamping from bar stock, they do all the machining from there. Some are stamped and partially machined before arrival, and some are not stamped but machined to a certain point from either bar stock or round stock and then they finish machined. On a lot of their models they typically machine the bezel and case backs in house then do the engraving before being sent to a final finish company.

As for MIM that's a whole other ball game. This process works great for internal parts for say guns and for very complex shapes that require a very high quantity etc.. and yes S&W would be able to make some of the parts with this method but i doubt it would be cost effective for them considering the small quantity's involved. The drawback for this Method for watches is, say we are talking about Stainless Steel or 316L in the case of most watches. This material while having great corrosion resistance and is non magnetic, is a fairly soft metal that as many of you know can dent and ding very easy. With the same material in the MIM process is even softer than the raw material and is also internally pourous to some degree so it would dent and scratch easier. Also the typical surface finish for MIM is about 32 (RMS) which is better than a cast part but still needs work to get to say a polished or evenly brushed surface. On another note the typical tolerance for MIM is about +/- .003 while that's good for some parts its not going to be for others. There is much more to the MIM process, such as shrinkage, angle, parallelism, minimum wall thickness and other tolerance minimums. I am just giving the basics here as it would pertain to watch case parts. I worked with MIM for a while a few years ago, the process has gotten much better and I am sure there are others here that have more current info than I do.

Are you a materials engineer? If so, it's good to have one on the board.

No I am not a materials engineer. I have a certification in metallurgy and machining. I worked in orthopedic implant design, prototyping, and manufacture for a while. My main focus is Watchmaking, I have been doing it both as a hobby and full time for most of my life. I started very young learning machining and watchmaking at first from my father who is a watchmaker also.

[sierra11b]

Cool background. Any chance we know your work?

I used to be an amateur knife maker using mostly stock removal methods and dabbled in my own heat treat for awhile. Sold my entire shop back when I was laid-off in 2009 and never got back into it, but still have a rudimentary interest in metallurgy myself, but limited to the latest knife makers steel "flavor of the month", cool jewelry and sword furniture/koshirae makers, etc.

[fastward]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

Well some of the mid cases come as a rough stamping from bar stock, they do all the machining from there. Some are stamped and partially machined before arrival, and some are not stamped but machined to a certain point from either bar stock or round stock and then they finish machined. On a lot of their models they typically machine the bezel and case backs in house then do the engraving before being sent to a final finish company.

As for MIM that's a whole other ball game. This process works great for internal parts for say guns and for very complex shapes that require a very high quantity etc.. and yes S&W would be able to make some of the parts with this method but i doubt it would be cost effective for them considering the small quantity's involved. The drawback for this Method for watches is, say we are talking about Stainless Steel or 316L in the case of most watches. This material while having great corrosion resistance and is non magnetic, is a fairly soft metal that as many of you know can dent and ding very easy. With the same material in the MIM process is even softer than the raw material and is also internally pourous to some degree so it would dent and scratch easier. Also the typical surface finish for MIM is about 32 (RMS) which is better than a cast part but still needs work to get to say a polished or evenly brushed surface. On another note the typical tolerance for MIM is about +/- .003 while that's good for some parts its not going to be for others. There is much more to the MIM process, such as shrinkage, angle, parallelism, minimum wall thickness and other tolerance minimums. I am just giving the basics here as it would pertain to watch case parts. I worked with MIM for a while a few years ago, the process has gotten much better and I am sure there are others here that have more current info than I do.

Are you a materials engineer? If so, it's good to have one on the board.

No I am not a materials engineer. I have a certification in metallurgy and machining. I worked in orthopedic implant design, prototyping, and manufacture for a while. My main focus is Watchmaking, I have been doing it both as a hobby and full time for most of my life. I started very young learning machining and watchmaking at first from my father who is a watchmaker also.

Knees and hips?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JP Chestnut]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

Well some of the mid cases come as a rough stamping from bar stock, they do all the machining from there. Some are stamped and partially machined before arrival, and some are not stamped but machined to a certain point from either bar stock or round stock and then they finish machined. On a lot of their models they typically machine the bezel and case backs in house then do the engraving before being sent to a final finish company.

As for MIM that's a whole other ball game. This process works great for internal parts for say guns and for very complex shapes that require a very high quantity etc.. and yes S&W would be able to make some of the parts with this method but i doubt it would be cost effective for them considering the small quantity's involved. The drawback for this Method for watches is, say we are talking about Stainless Steel or 316L in the case of most watches. This material while having great corrosion resistance and is non magnetic, is a fairly soft metal that as many of you know can dent and ding very easy. With the same material in the MIM process is even softer than the raw material and is also internally pourous to some degree so it would dent and scratch easier. Also the typical surface finish for MIM is about 32 (RMS) which is better than a cast part but still needs work to get to say a polished or evenly brushed surface. On another note the typical tolerance for MIM is about +/- .003 while that's good for some parts its not going to be for others. There is much more to the MIM process, such as shrinkage, angle, parallelism, minimum wall thickness and other tolerance minimums. I am just giving the basics here as it would pertain to watch case parts. I worked with MIM for a while a few years ago, the process has gotten much better and I am sure there are others here that have more current info than I do.

Are you a materials engineer? If so, it's good to have one on the board.

No I am not a materials engineer. I have a certification in metallurgy and machining. I worked in orthopedic implant design, prototyping, and manufacture for a while. My main focus is Watchmaking, I have been doing it both as a hobby and full time for most of my life. I started very young learning machining and watchmaking at first from my father who is a watchmaker also.

Knees and hips?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Penis.

[Watchout2018]

Sean,

So what exact method does Fricker's suppliers use? Cast forging perhaps? I suspect you know a bit about this subject as you registered to post this... As a rule, assuming you intend to stick around, an intro thread with naked pics of your significant other are encouraged, but not required.

I ask because S&W pretty much uses and has mastered the MIM process for years now with their firearm manufacturing. They still forge some components but very little (some hammers, triggers, and other components for various models), but even in the event you return a classic for repair, the likelihood of getting NOS forged parts are long gone.

I wonder if S&W could manufacture every component with the MIMs process? Maybe a monoblock design?

I have no skin in the manufacturing game, but am curious...

Well some of the mid cases come as a rough stamping from bar stock, they do all the machining from there. Some are stamped and partially machined before arrival, and some are not stamped but machined to a certain point from either bar stock or round stock and then they finish machined. On a lot of their models they typically machine the bezel and case backs in house then do the engraving before being sent to a final finish company.

As for MIM that's a whole other ball game. This process works great for internal parts for say guns and for very complex shapes that require a very high quantity etc.. and yes S&W would be able to make some of the parts with this method but i doubt it would be cost effective for them considering the small quantity's involved. The drawback for this Method for watches is, say we are talking about Stainless Steel or 316L in the case of most watches. This material while having great corrosion resistance and is non magnetic, is a fairly soft metal that as many of you know can dent and ding very easy. With the same material in the MIM process is even softer than the raw material and is also internally pourous to some degree so it would dent and scratch easier. Also the typical surface finish for MIM is about 32 (RMS) which is better than a cast part but still needs work to get to say a polished or evenly brushed surface. On another note the typical tolerance for MIM is about +/- .003 while that's good for some parts its not going to be for others. There is much more to the MIM process, such as shrinkage, angle, parallelism, minimum wall thickness and other tolerance minimums. I am just giving the basics here as it would pertain to watch case parts. I worked with MIM for a while a few years ago, the process has gotten much better and I am sure there are others here that have more current info than I do.

Are you a materials engineer? If so, it's good to have one on the board.

No I am not a materials engineer. I have a certification in metallurgy and machining. I worked in orthopedic implant design, prototyping, and manufacture for a while. My main focus is Watchmaking, I have been doing it both as a hobby and full time for most of my life. I started very young learning machining and watchmaking at first from my father who is a watchmaker also.

Knees and hips?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I worked on many projects. Yes knees, hips, many different types of spine plates, femoral broaches, elbows, bone screws, cut blocks, keel punch’s and the guides, growing rods for scoliosis, lots of specialized tools for the surgeons to perform various procedures. Mostly for companies like Stryker, Medtronic, Globus, Theken Spine, and many others.

[fastward]

I worked on many projects. Yes knees, hips, many different types of spine plates, femoral broaches, elbows, bone screws, cut blocks, keel punch’s and the guides, growing rods for scoliosis, lots of specialized tools for the surgeons to perform various procedures. Mostly for companies like Stryker, Medtronic, Globus, Theken Spine, and many others.

I’ve seen all of those over the past 18 years.
Watchmaking makes sense as a next step.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hoppyjr]

Fricker doesnt make the cases entirely either. They design and then create machinable drawings. Out source stamped blanks in many cases and then do some of the finish machining, drilling of the lugs, engraving of bezels, chamfering, fluting, then the cases goto another company for the final surface finish and or coating. Crowns, crown tubes, lug bars, crystals, gaskets, bezel retaining springs, bezel click springs are all out sourced. Then all comes back to fricker to be assembled into a complete case only or a complete watch head with dial hands and movement Depending on the customers requirements. I am not knocking them just explaining how to works. A lot of companies today have the same manufacturing model. Making a good quality watchcase is not quite as easy as some have speculated here. It’s also not the most complicated by far.

This makes sense and explains the WCT Seal clones. It also explains why most Fricker watches I've owned have had crown issues. I recall the Fricker guy (can't recall his name, but Platts uses him) saying the designs were done by Fricker, but the manufacturing happened in China.