Doxa is in real trouble

Discussion of Doxa watches.
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Wario406
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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Wario406 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:22 pm

And, Chris’ argument about guns, and other peoples argument’s about other products like purse’s, etc… has a lot of weight.

And the end of the day, I buy what I like and what I can afford. Sometimes those two don’t align so I don’t buy anything until I can afford it - but, that’s my sleepless issue.

If it’s not illegal, and a company like Doxa has to go out of business because of clones - then I submit they have 1.) a crappy legal team, or 2.) have crappy product design and development leadership.

The whole clone thing makes makes for some great forum fodder, but I don’t see it having much other real impact.


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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by aikiman44 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:10 pm

There were small businesses I know of that went out because of knock offs. No fault of their own. Just cheap foreign knock offs. To blame them is not right. Licenses, design, prototypes, production, labor, advertising, etc., the whole business thing is expensive. Companies shouldn’t have to pay the freight of cheap clones that piggy back on their work.
This is not to knock competition, if appropriate.
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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by amckiwi » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:26 pm

If Doxa make a TI version are they making a copy?

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Wario406 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:32 pm

amckiwi wrote:If Doxa make a TI version are they making a copy?
Image


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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by deepcdvr » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Ryeguy » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:53 pm

aikiman44 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:10 pm
There were small businesses I know of that went out because of knock offs. No fault of their own. Just cheap foreign knock offs. To blame them is not right. Licenses, design, prototypes, production, labor, advertising, etc., the whole business thing is expensive. Companies shouldn’t have to pay the freight of cheap clones that piggy back on their work.
This is not to knock competition, if appropriate.
I totally get it and agree if a small business comes up with a novel product that is cloned -that sucks.

In this case we are talking about the clone of a design that is roughly 55 years old (the Doxa Sub 300). The Doxa 600 design is (I guess) 40 years old. I’m not bad mouthing modern Doxa, but I think it is fair to say they aren’t exactly innovative.

I’m also not arguing right or wrong, I’m just pointing out the differences between the situations we are discussing.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Jeep99dad » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:07 pm

amckiwi wrote:If Doxa make a TI version are they making a copy?
Doxa already made a titanium watch
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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Ryeguy » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:17 pm

Jeep99dad wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:07 pm
amckiwi wrote:If Doxa make a TI version are they making a copy?
Doxa already made a titanium watch
The 800Ti, but that was released in 2008, so 14 years ago. I think it was a limited edition of 500 watches.

It was definitely a cool watch and used tritium tubes for the hands and dial markers. No BOR bracelet though. It was a more traditional 5 link.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by JP Chestnut » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Ryeguy » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm

JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.
I think Colt might beg to differ.

Once the design patents expired, dozens of companies made “homages” to the Stoner design.

Ironically, the Stoner AR-10 design is about the same age as the Doxa 300 design.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by JP Chestnut » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:23 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.
I think Colt might beg to differ.

Once the design patents expired, dozens of companies made “homages” to the Stoner design.

Ironically, the Stoner AR-10 design is about the same age as the Doxa 300 design.
Well, Colt went out of business but whoever runs Colt at CZ might have maybe given it a second thought.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Wario406 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:31 pm

JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:23 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.
I think Colt might beg to differ.

Once the design patents expired, dozens of companies made “homages” to the Stoner design.

Ironically, the Stoner AR-10 design is about the same age as the Doxa 300 design.
Well, Colt went out of business but whoever runs Colt at CZ might have maybe given it a second thought.
Colt went out of business because they couldnt manage their way out of a wet paper bag...

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by aikiman44 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:49 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:53 pm
aikiman44 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:10 pm
There were small businesses I know of that went out because of knock offs. No fault of their own. Just cheap foreign knock offs. To blame them is not right. Licenses, design, prototypes, production, labor, advertising, etc., the whole business thing is expensive. Companies shouldn’t have to pay the freight of cheap clones that piggy back on their work.
This is not to knock competition, if appropriate.
I totally get it and agree if a small business comes up with a novel product that is cloned -that sucks.

In this case we are talking about the clone of a design that is roughly 55 years old (the Doxa Sub 300). The Doxa 600 design is (I guess) 40 years old. I’m not bad mouthing modern Doxa, but I think it is fair to say they aren’t exactly innovative.

I’m also not arguing right or wrong, I’m just pointing out the differences between the situations we are discussing.
True. Though I like my carbon fiber Divingstar.
"We'd better synchronize our watches."

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by toxicavenger » Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:26 pm

:rimshot:

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by dnslater » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:23 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:53 pm
aikiman44 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:10 pm
There were small businesses I know of that went out because of knock offs. No fault of their own. Just cheap foreign knock offs. To blame them is not right. Licenses, design, prototypes, production, labor, advertising, etc., the whole business thing is expensive. Companies shouldn’t have to pay the freight of cheap clones that piggy back on their work.
This is not to knock competition, if appropriate.
I totally get it and agree if a small business comes up with a novel product that is cloned -that sucks.

In this case we are talking about the clone of a design that is roughly 55 years old (the Doxa Sub 300). The Doxa 600 design is (I guess) 40 years old. I’m not bad mouthing modern Doxa, but I think it is fair to say they aren’t exactly innovative.

I’m also not arguing right or wrong, I’m just pointing out the differences between the situations we are discussing.
Still a knock off… and after 40 years Doxa decided to create the tooling to re release the model with interesting new dial colors and tweaks… and Seestern followed up with their own release copying the Doxa re release.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Ryeguy » Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:20 am

JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:23 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.
I think Colt might beg to differ.

Once the design patents expired, dozens of companies made “homages” to the Stoner design.

Ironically, the Stoner AR-10 design is about the same age as the Doxa 300 design.
Well, Colt went out of business but whoever runs Colt at CZ might have maybe given it a second thought.
The design patent for the AR-15 expired in 1977.

The number of companies making “knock-offs” really exploded in the mid-1990’s.

Colt filed for Chapter 11 in 2015.

I’m sure there are many factors to Colt’s business collapse, but if the popularity of the AR-15 design increased at the rate we saw, and Colt was the only company making the design, I think Colt might have been in a better financial position.

I just find the parallels between the watch industry and the firearms industry are interesting, especially our reactions to “homages”.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by JP Chestnut » Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:46 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:20 am
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:23 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.
I think Colt might beg to differ.

Once the design patents expired, dozens of companies made “homages” to the Stoner design.

Ironically, the Stoner AR-10 design is about the same age as the Doxa 300 design.
Well, Colt went out of business but whoever runs Colt at CZ might have maybe given it a second thought.
The design patent for the AR-15 expired in 1977.

The number of companies making “knock-offs” really exploded in the mid-1990’s.

Colt filed for Chapter 11 in 2015.

I’m sure there are many factors to Colt’s business collapse, but if the popularity of the AR-15 design increased at the rate we saw, and Colt was the only company making the design, I think Colt might have been in a better financial position.

I just find the parallels between the watch industry and the firearms industry are interesting, especially our reactions to “homages”.
Definitely. They’re antithetical.

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Wario406 » Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:58 am

JP Chestnut wrote:
Ryeguy wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:20 am
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:23 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm
JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:29 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:50 pm
Ryeguy wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:45 am
I think a lot of it is just our unique (maybe abnormal) passion for watches.

When I go to the shooting range, I never hear anyone bash someone's Ruger, Kimber, or Springfield Armory 1911 clone because they didn't buy a Colt.

Heck, I lug around one of these and no one seems to care it wasn't made by Walther.
Image

If you are violating a patent, I have no sympathy. If you are making a replica, I have no sympathy.

If you are copying a "look" or style and only bring "cheaper than the original" to the table, then I'm probably not interested. It isn't illegal, but 9 times out of 10 I'll want the real thing.

If, however, you offer the style of the original, but have advanced the ball with either design or material enhancements to make it "better", then the line gets fuzzy in my mind.

I respect we all have different opinions on this topic. All good.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking..

If you’re not rep’ing and calling it a Doxa/Rolex, etc, I don’t care. I prefer the real thing as well, buy most people don’t have 12 K for a sub or even 2K for a 300T..
Guns are weird in that the design becomes ubiquitous rather than the brand associated with the design. An “ar 15” is more of a concept than a particular weapon made by a particular company. same, though to a lesser extent, with the 1911.
I think Colt might beg to differ.

Once the design patents expired, dozens of companies made “homages” to the Stoner design.

Ironically, the Stoner AR-10 design is about the same age as the Doxa 300 design.
Well, Colt went out of business but whoever runs Colt at CZ might have maybe given it a second thought.
The design patent for the AR-15 expired in 1977.

The number of companies making “knock-offs” really exploded in the mid-1990’s.

Colt filed for Chapter 11 in 2015.

I’m sure there are many factors to Colt’s business collapse, but if the popularity of the AR-15 design increased at the rate we saw, and Colt was the only company making the design, I think Colt might have been in a better financial position.

I just find the parallels between the watch industry and the firearms industry are interesting, especially our reactions to “homages”.
Definitely. They’re antithetical.
The AR wasn’t/isn’t Colt’s only icon, or their only offering. All the gun manufacturers battle for sales and product adoption on a regular basis. Given some of the theories here, Glock should be out of business- but they’re not. Success is achieved through “innovation” and commitment to excellence. Colt is now bringing back their Snake guns, I submit they should start back up their 1911 line too. There was a time that new pony guns drew a premium and were sought after. They still are somewhat sought after but now mostly by collectors. Good on them for reintroducing the snakes, but nobody is being fooled. They have a battle on their hands and are going to have to win on brand, quality, AND product excellence! Ruger is kickstarting the Marlin brand - I think they have the same fight on their hands as Colt does with an advantage that Ruger knows how to mass produce consumer and military fire arms.

If Doxa wants to live on a thin offering of only a few watches then they need to batten down the hatches and have their product costs dialed in.


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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by HapaHapa » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:09 am

Wario406 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:32 pm
andrema wrote:Anyone looking for a vintage Isofrane? I just found an extra one in one of my boxes.
Dibs.


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LOL. I find stuff too when I go through boxes and cases stacked in the closet.
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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by justsellbrgs » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:01 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:54 am
If nothing else, it demonstrates how flexible these guys are in manufacturing and how quickly they can produce small quantity batches of a finished product.

FlyingDoctor on WUS took apart one of those Ti Maranez "homages" and honestly, the manufacturing looked really decent. Ti watch case and bezel. Ti crown with a steel core. Threaded steel crown tube. Ti BOR bracelet with independent beads and screw pins. Vitron seals at the case back with a compression spring.

Yes, the design is a rip off, but you really can't look down on the manufacturing quality - especially when you consider this is a $350 +/- watch.

My opinion (which I understand is worth practically nothing) is brands such as Doxa which make a handful of unique designs and are sold at near luxury prices ($2K - $5K) are really at risk due to the ability for others to copy the design at a fraction of the price at a decent (arguably very similar) quality.

Add in the fact that Doxa is a fairly "under the radar" brand ("Doxa" as a brand is as meaningless as "Maranez" to the average non-WIS person) and I think there is significant risk for them.

FWIW, I'd put Squale in the same boat. If Maranez starts popping out 50ATMOS homages tomorrow, Squale is equally screwed.
good point.... and I recall when Squale first popped back into the US. Princeton Watches got 7-8 from Italy and the quality was junk. He had to send 4-5 back with QC issues. It's a practice of buying a dormant brand and reviving it with product manufactured globally (Asia), and assining a premium price for the name
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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by kempoman » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:03 am

I know they are close but not close to interchangeable........

https://www.doxa300t.com/newbezel/newbezel.htm
Watch collector since 1989

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Re: Doxa is in real trouble

Post by Ryeguy » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:31 am

kempoman wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:03 am
I know they are close but not close to interchangeable........

https://www.doxa300t.com/newbezel/newbezel.htm
Yes, that surprised me too, although that 600T is a previous generation design case. I don’t know if the Maranez bezel would fit a modern 300T. Maybe. Someone would need to measure to see.

To be honest, I don’t know whether to be happy or sad with Flyingdoc’s post.

On one hand, I am impressed with the out-of-the-box thinking to be able to bring back a watch with an irreplaceable part.

On the other hand, it is kind of sad to see a “Frankenstein-Doxa” created and sad to hear how little help Doxa was in supporting repairs.

I mean, we slam these Asian pop-up brands who’s only talent seems to be in cloning existing designs, yet they seem to be responsive in customer support where the original brand is not. That is kind of odd.

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