Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

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Wario406
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:15 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:37 am
IMO, I want to wear a watch that I like. If the Seestern or Maranez makes you feel "dirty", then sell it. If it makes you feel happy and you like it, then keep it.

Life is too short to listen to other people's opinions about something as inconsequential as a watch - especially here. We are all watch nerds and love to debate this stuff. Wear what makes you happy.
I cant agree with you more about wearing watches that make me happy, your keep or sell advice, and lastly about gathering opinions!

I was looking forward to and am very excited about the diversity of perspective from this group as I have a lot of respect for your experience and opinions.

As I stated above, I love Seestern - but, I truly it got it as a “prototype” to see if I liked the look and size on my wrist, and my answer is yes, I like it a lot - but, long term I want to own the real brand if I am going to own a 300T. I went through kind of a similar discussion in my head before I bought my Laco… What I have learned is that the Seestern is a REALLY NICE watch by any standard, and its especially a sweet watch for the money. :cheers:
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by DenverBuff » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:52 am

I'm not an "homage" guy either , but I did drop $175 on the blue Seestern. My rationale:

1. I've always liked the Doxas, but the design was always a bit of a novelty to me. Strictly a summer/vacation watch and frankly -as I live in Colorado - I wasn't ready to drop $2K on a pure dive watch I would wear only once in a while due to its obvious "hard core diver" design utility

2. Since I don't plan on buying a Doxa (yet), I don't feel like I'm taking money out of Doxa's pockets.

3. Yes, the Seestern is a blatant copy of the Doxa design and Seestern/Maranez/TFRog make no bones about it. But there's a bit of hypocrisy that goes with homages: when Steinhart/Squale/Ginault et. al. charge $500 and up for their "copies" using Swiss movements, they're viewed as "craftsmen bringing popular designs to the masses". When Seestern and Invicta do it at $150, they're design robbers.

4. I dunno. I suppose that the $2K Doxa charges for their watches is a function of their own unique design and the effort they expended to create it. So stipulated. And they are perhaps rightly pissed at the Chinese copies. But if the design patent has run, then . . . well, there's an argument there.

5. Watches are no different than high fashion clothing and accessories. As soon as Gucci, Armani, Vercase, Hermes et. al. come out with cool outfits and (especially) handbags at inflated, Beverly Hills prices . . . in a matter of weeks, you can buy very similar (if not direct copies) of that same stuff at your local Macy's or on-line .

6. Finally. The Seestern is a tremendous watch with insane specs for the $175 I paid.

No guilt here.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:02 am

DenverBuff wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:52 am
I'm not an "homage" guy either , but I did drop $175 on the blue Seestern. My rationale:

1. I've always liked the Doxas, but the design was always a bit of a novelty to me. Strictly a summer/vacation watch and frankly -as I live in Colorado - I wasn't ready to drop $2K on a pure dive watch I would wear only once in a while due to its obvious "hard core diver" design utility

2. Since I don't plan on buying a Doxa (yet), I don't feel like I'm taking money out of Doxa's pockets.

3. Yes, the Seestern is a blatant copy of the Doxa design and Seestern/Maranez/TFRog make no bones about it. But there's a bit of hypocrisy that goes with homages: when Steinhart/Squale/Ginault et. al. charge $500 and up for their "copies" using Swiss movements, they're viewed as "craftsmen bringing popular designs to the masses". When Seestern and Invicta do it at $150, they're design robbers.

4. I dunno. I suppose that the $2K Doxa charges for their watches is a function of their own unique design and the effort they expended to create it. So stipulated. And they are perhaps rightly pissed at the Chinese copies. But if the design patent has run, then . . . well, there's an argument there.

5. Watches are no different than high fashion clothing and accessories. As soon as Gucci, Armani, Vercase, Hermes et. al. come out with cool outfits and (especially) handbags at inflated, Beverly Hills prices . . . in a matter of weeks, you can buy very similar (if not direct copies) of that same stuff at your local Macy's or on-line .

6. Finally. The Seestern is a tremendous watch with insane specs for the $175 I paid.

No guilt here.
Thanks for that feedback! Your point #6 is so spot on…
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by HapaHapa » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am

dnslater wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:19 am
HapaHapa wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:48 pm
Chocodove wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:28 pm
They are probably even made in the same factory.
Damn I hadn’t looked that close. It’s not the Maranez “similar” design. I agree probably off the same production line. But I still feel like Doxa is ripping us off.
Ripping you off? They own the IP/design and can charge what they want. You aren't forced to buy and Doxa is in now way tricking you with their pricing, so they aren't ripping you off. Pricing on all of this man-jewelry is based on the market, and not necessarily the production cost anyway...

Plenty of watches out there that are iconic/original designs for $200 from Seiko, Citizen, Vostok and many others.
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by BacoNoir » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:44 pm

I just can’t buy blatant copies of any brand. Just doesn’t feel right to me. I know they put a different name on the dial, but I feel the intent is to appear like the original at a distance, which is disingenuous in my eyes.

That’s just me and my view - not a judgement on anyone else.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by hoppyjr » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:51 pm

BacoNoir wrote:I just can’t buy blatant copies of any brand. Just doesn’t feel right to me. I know they put a different name on the dial, but I feel the intent is to appear like the original at a distance, which is disingenuous in my eyes.

That’s just me and my view - not a judgement on anyone else.
Agreed. Not judging, but buying this watch is the equivalent to buying a fake item that looks the same but was labeled “Bucci” instead of Gucci.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by AtomicTom » Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:13 pm

This is actually such a great topic Wario, and either way you look at
it, the Seestern was definitely worth 'it's price that's for sure :thumbsup: . :thumbsup:
Because you have a tribute to a classic that's more than nice enough
to keep in the collection. And can you imagine keeping it?! And being
able to always compare it to the real thing? Or as a beater?! Or neat
conversation piece?! Those are all good reasons to keep it.

However, I know your real question is whether, or not the Doxa is
worth 10X the Seestern.

I really can't answer that. ..I mean maybe it isn't actually 10x as good
quality wise. Or materials wise. ..However, history, and legacy wise,
the watch, the company. Along with icons who have made the brand
as iconic as it is, might actually make it worth it.

Honestly, a watch is often a lot more than just a watch. Often more
than just a look, and with the Doxa you are after, that is the case.
It's something special, something original, and historic. So it just
might be worth it Wario. ;)

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:28 pm

AtomicTom wrote:This is actually such a great topic Wario, and either way you look at
it, the Seestern was definitely worth 'it's price that's for sure :thumbsup: . :thumbsup:
Because you have a tribute to a classic that's more than nice enough
to keep in the collection. And can you imagine keeping it?! And being
able to always compare it to the real thing? Or as a beater?! Or neat
conversation piece?! Those are all good reasons to keep it.

However, I know your real question is whether, or not the Doxa is
worth 10X the Seestern.

I really can't answer that. ..I mean maybe it isn't actually 10x as good
quality wise. Or materials wise. ..However, history, and legacy wise,
the watch, the company. Along with icons who have made the brand
as iconic as it is, might actually make it worth it.

Honestly, a watch is often a lot more than just a watch. Often more
than just a look, and with the Doxa you are after, that is the case.
It's something special, something original, and historic. So it just
might be worth it Wario. ;)
Thanks! This is a real challenge for me! As an engineer, I want both sides of the equation to be equal - and, the intrinsics play a huge part in this hobby. This is a fun conversation. Im definitely getting some great perspectives!


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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Captdave » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:10 pm

logan2z wrote:
HapaHapa wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:31 am
hoppyjr wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:15 am
I’m not trying to Nishant any of this, but….. would we feel the same about a Panerai copy or Rolex clone like Ginault?
Design patent only lasts 15 years.
True, but making an exact replica of someone else's design - that's still in production - reeks of laziness and is nothing more than an attempt to cash in on another's work. A design that's inspired by an existing design? Ok. Buying the assets to a defunct company and resurrecting its designs.? Cool. But making a 1:1 copy of a design that isn't yours and that is still in production by the original company is a no-go in my book - patent infringing or not.
Sounds very similar to generic drug manufacturers.


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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by dnslater » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:34 am

HapaHapa wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.
I agree, and acknowledge that as someone who designs things for a living, I take a harder line on intellectual property than others and value companies that create something unique much higher than those that just profit off the designs of others. Others feel different and I'm cool with that.... we all have our different reasons for liking watches.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Ryeguy » Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:58 am

dnslater wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:34 am
HapaHapa wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.
I agree, and acknowledge that as someone who designs things for a living, I take a harder line on intellectual property than others and value companies that create something unique much higher than those that just profit off the designs of others. Others feel different and I'm cool with that.... we all have our different reasons for liking watches.
I completely understand and respect your position on this.

What I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?

For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.

Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:27 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:58 am
dnslater wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:34 am
HapaHapa wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.
I agree, and acknowledge that as someone who designs things for a living, I take a harder line on intellectual property than others and value companies that create something unique much higher than those that just profit off the designs of others. Others feel different and I'm cool with that.... we all have our different reasons for liking watches.
I completely understand and respect your position on this.

What I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?

For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.

Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?
You raise a very interesting perspective… It camps on to an earlier comment also about Gucci, etc. Im feel less dirty as the thread goes on with some solid reasoning that I was overlooking.

Sure, Doxa was the first with the design and coloring, but… so are so many other products that just get steam rolled into clones or homages. At least Seestern is calling it a homage and giving some credit to the original author (and generating marketing for themselves too…) rather then doing what KIA does when it blatantly rips off every other car manufacturer on the planet as it reuses their designs with every new model they produce.

Someone once said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery… I understand that no one is forcing me to buy an imitation, but when one is this nice - I no longer feel the self imposed sliminess I was creating for myself. I only bought it as a mock-up - but, now I have a very different mindset… Thanks everyone! :thumbsup:
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by AtomicTom » Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:53 am

Wario406 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:28 pm
AtomicTom wrote:This is actually such a great topic Wario, and either way you look at
it, the Seestern was definitely worth 'it's price that's for sure :thumbsup: . :thumbsup:
Because you have a tribute to a classic that's more than nice enough
to keep in the collection. And can you imagine keeping it?! And being
able to always compare it to the real thing? Or as a beater?! Or neat
conversation piece?! Those are all good reasons to keep it.

However, I know your real question is whether, or not the Doxa is
worth 10X the Seestern.

I really can't answer that. ..I mean maybe it isn't actually 10x as good
quality wise. Or materials wise. ..However, history, and legacy wise,
the watch, the company. Along with icons who have made the brand
as iconic as it is, might actually make it worth it.

Honestly, a watch is often a lot more than just a watch. Often more
than just a look, and with the Doxa you are after, that is the case.
It's something special, something original, and historic. So it just
might be worth it Wario. ;)
Thanks! This is a real challenge for me! As an engineer, I want both sides of the equation to be equal - and, the intrinsics play a huge part in this hobby. This is a fun conversation. Im definitely getting some great perspectives!


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You are very very welcome Wario. :) Honestly love the way you think. :salute:

And this really IS a fun conversation. So thank YOU for starting it. Here's
hoping it helps you enjoy not only the Seestern, and possible Doxa in the
future. But the entire hobby as well.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:07 am

AtomicTom wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:53 am

You are very very welcome Wario. :) Honestly love the way you think. :salute:

And this really IS a fun conversation. So thank YOU for starting it. Here's
hoping it helps you enjoy not only the Seestern, and possible Doxa in the
future. But the entire hobby as well.
:cheers: :thumbsup: :cheers:
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Ryeguy » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am

Wario406 wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:27 am
Ryeguy wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:58 am
dnslater wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:34 am
HapaHapa wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.
I agree, and acknowledge that as someone who designs things for a living, I take a harder line on intellectual property than others and value companies that create something unique much higher than those that just profit off the designs of others. Others feel different and I'm cool with that.... we all have our different reasons for liking watches.
I completely understand and respect your position on this.

What I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?

For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.

Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?
You raise a very interesting perspective… It camps on to an earlier comment also about Gucci, etc. Im feel less dirty as the thread goes on with some solid reasoning that I was overlooking.

Sure, Doxa was the first with the design and coloring, but… so are so many other products that just get steam rolled into clones or homages. At least Seestern is calling it a homage and giving some credit to the original author (and generating marketing for themselves too…) rather then doing what KIA does when it blatantly rips off every other car manufacturer on the planet as it reuses their designs with every new model they produce.

Someone once said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery… I understand that no one is forcing me to buy an imitation, but when one is this nice - I no longer feel the self imposed sliminess I was creating for myself. I only bought it as a mock-up - but, now I have a very different mindset… Thanks everyone! :thumbsup:
Yes, but like I said, I really don't want to discount anyone else's opinion or thoughts on the matter.

I just found it interesting that I personally could have strong feelings regarding the topic when it came to one object (a watch) yet completely different perspectives when it came to another object.

It made me question myself a bit, to be honest.

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Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Captdave » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:31 am

Ryeguy wrote:
dnslater wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:34 am
HapaHapa wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.
I agree, and acknowledge that as someone who designs things for a living, I take a harder line on intellectual property than others and value companies that create something unique much higher than those that just profit off the designs of others. Others feel different and I'm cool with that.... we all have our different reasons for liking watches.
I completely understand and respect your position on this.

What I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?

For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.

Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?
.

Redacted


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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by amckiwi » Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:32 pm

I once dated a chick that tried to look like Pamela Anderson
She failed but I still went there
Yes I did feel dirty

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:33 pm

amckiwi wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:32 pm
I once dated a chick that tried to look like Pamela Anderson
She failed but I still went there
Yes I did feel dirty

And, two pages in - the ADD of the internet kicks in! Hell ya! :cheers:
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by DEMO » Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:45 pm

amckiwi wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:32 pm
I once dated a chick that tried to look like Pamela Anderson
She failed but I still went there
Yes I did feel dirty
This gave me a good laugh. :lol:
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Henryj » Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:55 pm

I get that you bought a Seestern. I get that you feel dirty. But, correlation is not causation.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by hoppyjr » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:41 pm

Henryj wrote:I get that you bought a Seestern. I get that you feel dirty. But, correlation is not causation.
Agreed. I believe he feels dirty because of the stockings, panties, and leather collar with “slut” in rhinestones.

No wristwatch should make you feel dirty.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by gwells » Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:17 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:58 am
dnslater wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:34 am
HapaHapa wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 am
Yes you are correct they can charge what they want, but the design patent isn’t lifetime.
I agree, and acknowledge that as someone who designs things for a living, I take a harder line on intellectual property than others and value companies that create something unique much higher than those that just profit off the designs of others. Others feel different and I'm cool with that.... we all have our different reasons for liking watches.
I completely understand and respect your position on this.

What I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?

For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.

Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?
as another creative, i'll say it's not a hard line. but there's a difference between "homage" or "inspiration" and a "copy." almost all design is "inspired" by something else. in the end, it comes down to whether you're "trading" on someone else's IP or finding inspiration in someone else's design and using that to create something new. or at least different enough that you can call it your own.

i suspect most of us know when something is essentially a copy and not just an homage or "inspired by." it's a question of how far we'll rationalize.

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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:58 pm

hoppyjr wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:41 pm
Henryj wrote:I get that you bought a Seestern. I get that you feel dirty. But, correlation is not causation.
Agreed. I believe he feels dirty because of the stockings, panties, and leather collar with “slut” in rhinestones.

No wristwatch should make you feel dirty.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by hoppyjr » Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:10 pm

Wario406 wrote:
hoppyjr wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:41 pm
Henryj wrote:I get that you bought a Seestern. I get that you feel dirty. But, correlation is not causation.
Agreed. I believe he feels dirty because of the stockings, panties, and leather collar with “slut” in rhinestones.

No wristwatch should make you feel dirty.
Do we know each other?!? :dance:
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by tattoo chef » Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:46 pm

I’ve talked about this before and my stance on this is more lax than others, but I bought a Maranez but the diver version that has a completely non-doxa dial. Of course the case and bracelet is extremely similar (though not to the current Doxa 300t) but nonetheless I don’t have it anymore as even with the different dial, I would still prefer to have the real deal or none at all, at least in this instance.
I’ve contemplated buying a San Martin-even had them contact me for a review. I’ve passed. They are the same as these maranez/Seestern and others if not worse. They are copies with a different logo.
There’s no mistaking what any of these watches are supposed to be.

Steinhart is not far off, at least with the original ocean models but that’s always been a different size and shape case never been a 1:1 copy and they have produced a lot of non-homages over the years.

Take the RZE Endeavor as an example of true inspiration. You can see some Sinn or Damasko in it and maybe a little IWC, but it doesn’t look like a copy of anything. So it can be done.

But these other types of watches obviously sell and as long as there is a market for them, companies roll produce them.


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