The Dive Watch Connection

What I was trying to explain is that it's not that simple. There are a lot of ways to cater to a customer besides how they order specifically.

Was there a list? Lol

In all seriousness, how many does he have to go around? If they are limited in quantity, what should he do?
His watches are popular and sell out. He announced when they were going on sale and they sold out fast.
Is what it is.
If he made more, he might end up sitting on stock that takes too long to move.
He’s obviously successful and looks like he is doing best he can.


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fwiw, if i understood what jason said earlier, the GMTs were all ordered before the fiasco with the second batch of seaforths. so he had limited stock. hopefully going forward all of his new releases will happen like the third batch of seaforths, where he does deposits/preorders and doesn't have the crazy free for all to grab a limited number of watches.

logan2z wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:32 pm

There's a nice blue Gen. 1 Seaforth for sale on WUS that doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast. No vestigial GMT hand either

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-ge ... 48669.html

there will be a gen 1 dark blue with 60m bezel here in a week or three. need to move mine to make room for the pastel blue.

matt.wu wrote:I understand the frustration. I just don't understand it as a reason to write off the brand.

I think he's balancing a very difficult problem with being a small internet business. I keep telling him to charge more, but he doesn't want to gouge. His watches are worth more than the price he asks, at least compared to everything else out there. Hell, Oak & Oscar is asking 3x and still had a significant fanbase.

In keeping the prices reasonable, he manages to generate loyalty in even aspiring customers, since he keeps his watches attainable despite demand. But keeping prices low means less flexibility in other dimensions. And I doubt he's getting filthy rich off the brand. And he doesn't have as much capital to throw at large upfront costs in excess stock.

If it sounds like I'm defending him, I am. I like what he's doing and happen to like the Seaforth model especially. And he's a humble, down-to-earth guy.

Yeah, maybe he's not maximizing the potential of his brand. Perhaps he could be making a ton more money and selling a ton more watches. But it doesn't mean he's running the business wrong. Maybe you'd do it differently. But he's running it right for him.

He really is a humble, nice guy.

hoppyjr wrote:

matt.wu wrote:I understand the frustration. I just don't understand it as a reason to write off the brand.

I think he's balancing a very difficult problem with being a small internet business. I keep telling him to charge more, but he doesn't want to gouge. His watches are worth more than the price he asks, at least compared to everything else out there. Hell, Oak & Oscar is asking 3x and still had a significant fanbase.

In keeping the prices reasonable, he manages to generate loyalty in even aspiring customers, since he keeps his watches attainable despite demand. But keeping prices low means less flexibility in other dimensions. And I doubt he's getting filthy rich off the brand. And he doesn't have as much capital to throw at large upfront costs in excess stock.

If it sounds like I'm defending him, I am. I like what he's doing and happen to like the Seaforth model especially. And he's a humble, down-to-earth guy.

Yeah, maybe he's not maximizing the potential of his brand. Perhaps he could be making a ton more money and selling a ton more watches. But it doesn't mean he's running the business wrong. Maybe you'd do it differently. But he's running it right for him.

He really is a humble, nice guy.

I think people's feelings about how he goes to market has nothing to do with his personality etc. I'm sure he's a great guy as I always hear.

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If anyone wants to sell any halios, I know a guy

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for a split second i added the blue into the cart, but wanted the grey... so was out of luck I guess

Same situation in round 2 for all it seems. Lol..

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Well, apologies for another stressful experience for whoever tried to purchase one. The GMTs were produced long before the interest in the Seaforth blew up, so there were never many to begin with (a little under 100 pieces). I've been posting that quantities are pretty severely limited consistently on Instagram, but I guess I made a mistake in not reiterating on the order page that they would be tough to get. They're only being sold now because I had to redo the GMT hand (which, as I've read, many of you dislike). The subsequent batch of Seaforths was made available via pre-order, which I think alleviated the circus situation and made it much easier to buy a watch.

I didn't want to allocate all the GMTs privately to give folks a fair shot at getting one. Looks like I should have just done it privately, judging from the same sort of comments from folks who weren't able to get one. As for the cart sniping, etc....it was a little under 4000 people on the site at both order open times, vying for 100 pieces. I think the people who had the fastest internet connections and who had preloaded their Paypal info were the successful ones.

I think all comments are welcome and fair, including the ones about me not knowing how to run a business, that you're moving on from the brand, etc. etc. But I have to call one out: Andrea, don't call me a douche on the interwebs, or accuse me of making a "douche move". Obviously you can type whatever you want, but I would like to think that I'd afford you a little more respect if we traded places.

Again, truly sorry for any stress the process caused. I kind of fixed the buying process with the pre-order, but this batch was funny in that they were already made in a quantity that made sense at the time.

Hi Dave. Why you do this?

Jason
HALIOS

Jason has always been a boss. Not apple sauce.

I don't understand why people think they are entitled to buy a watch, just because they have the desire and the money to own said watch. That's not how the world works sometimes. Also, people getting upset because a sales model is not to their liking makes me chuckle.

I had one in my cart and, like you, lost it as soon as I went to PayPal. It wasn't a 4 minute hold. It was more like a four second hold.

I honestly give zeros shits. It's a nice watch and I'm sure Jason is a nice guy, but ultimately it is just another micro that would've put me $900 further away from the Tudor I want. I only participated in the fiasco because I happened to be online at the prescribed time and wanted to see what the fuss was about.

As for the buying model, the only reason Jason does this is he likes the feeding frenzy. The discussion about it (positive and negative) drives the brand. Maybe witnessing it strokes his ego in some way.

If he really wanted to stop it he could take zero cost pre-orders and build watches in appropriately sized batches such as done by OWC. This would provide him some assurance when placing his orders with his suppliers that he wouldn't be over extended. That model, however, wouldn't drive multi-page forum threads, so why do it? In my opinion, it isn't much different than Ginault's crazy marketing language. They know it's bullshit, but it certainly drove discussions much more than the truth ever would. As the saying goes, all publicity is good publicity.

For me, it's emblematic of the Participation Trophy generation. A big chunk of the (mostly younger) population thinks its entitled to something just because it showed up and wants it. I just don't understand this. And yes, it's good to have opinions, but strong opinions about something like this....I just do not understand.

Ryeguy wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:30 am

If he really wanted to stop it he could take zero cost pre-orders and build watches in appropriately sized batches such as done by OWC. This would provide him some assurance when placing his orders with his suppliers that he wouldn't be over extended. That model, however, wouldn't drive multi-page forum threads, so why do it? In my opinion, it isn't much different than Ginault's crazy marketing language. They know it's bullshit, but it certainly drove discussions much more than the truth ever would. As the saying goes, all publicity is good publicity.

I disagree. His current business model (frequently releasing small batches) allows him to remain a one man operation and give high quality customer service to buyers.... and he can sleep at night knowing demand is always there for the next round, partially from the buzz generated from the process.... and also sleep well knowing that he personally is ensuring high quality control.

Sure, he could do a much larger release, but that would either extend his delivery timeframe dramatically or cause him to need to scale up his operation, both of which might compromise the attributes that made Halios successful.

My business is currently scaling up quickly, and while there are advantages, there are also massive headaches.

I was an original Bluering owner, what seems like forever ago. I still remember reaching out to him shortly after purchase when I snagged the bezel and it popped off, sending the click spring into the weeds. Jason was very responsive and had two new click springs in an envelope to me a few days later free of charge. While I have not bought a Halios since, I still hold the brand in high regard based on this experience.

Very cool Jason posted here, that said the whole scenario is a joke. For me, I tried twice and struck out twice. Now I'm done. I gave it a shot. I've never owned a halios and now won't buy one unless it's from a flip as I won't waste my time again on a terrible buying process.

I tend to agree w above comment that Jason knows what he's doing, this isn't the first nor last time this will happen. As such, he will get lots written about his brand. Loved, hated but never ignored sort of scenario it seems.

Shame as as there are plenty of well qualified buyers like me new to the brand who he's pushing away with experiences like this. But, it doesn't matter as the frenzy created will sustain his needs. He doesn't need me or other new clients. He can sell 100 watches a pop with his eyes closed, a terrible buying process etc. Hey, all I can say is I tried, it didn't work and my money goes elsewhere. All good.





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dukerules wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:32 am

For me, it's emblematic of the Participation Trophy generation. A big chunk of the (mostly younger) population thinks its entitled to something just because it showed up and wants it. I just don't understand this. And yes, it's good to have opinions, but strong opinions about something like this....I just do not understand.

Hit the nail on the head with Participation Trophy

dnslater wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:51 am

Ryeguy wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:30 am

If he really wanted to stop it he could take zero cost pre-orders and build watches in appropriately sized batches such as done by OWC. This would provide him some assurance when placing his orders with his suppliers that he wouldn't be over extended. That model, however, wouldn't drive multi-page forum threads, so why do it? In my opinion, it isn't much different than Ginault's crazy marketing language. They know it's bullshit, but it certainly drove discussions much more than the truth ever would. As the saying goes, all publicity is good publicity.

I disagree. His current business model (frequently releasing small batches) allows him to remain a one man operation and give high quality customer service to buyers.... and he can sleep at night knowing demand is always there for the next round, partially from the buzz generated from the process.... and also sleep well knowing that he personally is ensuring high quality control.

Sure, he could do a much larger release, but that would either extend his delivery timeframe dramatically or cause him to need to scale up his operation, both of which might compromise the attributes that made Halios successful.

My business is currently scaling up quickly, and while there are advantages, there are also massive headaches.

I was an original Bluering owner, what seems like forever ago. I still remember reaching out to him shortly after purchase when I snagged the bezel and it popped off, sending the click spring into the weeds. Jason was very responsive and had two new click springs in an envelope to me a few days later free of charge. While I have not bought a Halios since, I still hold the brand in high regard based on this experience.

I'm glad he is a good, responsive, retailer but I don't see how releasing multiple small batches impacts customer service differently than one or two large batches (other than potentially high levels of "infant mortality" warranty claims). Ultimately, you are servicing the same number of clients. He isn't in a "service" industry. He is delivering a product and only interacts with a client during the buying process and if the product fails.

There are three very legitimate reasons a micro might limit a model run: parts availability (2893-2's may not be available to him in large quantities), money (he doesn't have $250K to send to his manufacturer to order a large inventory), and fear (he can't afford to sit on a large unsold inventory if the design is a flop).

I think 'controlled scaling' is not one of the reasons. He doesn't actually build anything (unlike OWC who orders parts from various suppliers and has them assembled locally). It is highly unlikely Jason even looks at the watch before it gets shipped to the buyer.

Again, it is what it is. This is the scenario Jason likes for whatever reason. It isn't my thing, just like shopping on Black Friday isn't my thing. It certainly drives the discussion though which pushes the brand. Jason may be a lot of things, but dumb isn't one of them.

paipanic wrote:Well, apologies for another stressful experience for whoever tried to purchase one. The GMTs were produced long before the interest in the Seaforth blew up, so there were never many to begin with (a little under 100 pieces). I've been posting that quantities are pretty severely limited consistently on Instagram, but I guess I made a mistake in not reiterating on the order page that they would be tough to get. They're only being sold now because I had to redo the GMT hand (which, as I've read, many of you dislike). The subsequent batch of Seaforths was made available via pre-order, which I think alleviated the circus situation and made it much easier to buy a watch.

I didn't want to allocate all the GMTs privately to give folks a fair shot at getting one. Looks like I should have just done it privately, judging from the same sort of comments from folks who weren't able to get one. As for the cart sniping, etc....it was a little under 4000 people on the site at both order open times, vying for 100 pieces. I think the people who had the fastest internet connections and who had preloaded their Paypal info were the successful ones.

I think all comments are welcome and fair, including the ones about me not knowing how to run a business, that you're moving on from the brand, etc. etc. But I have to call one out: Andrea, don't call me a douche on the interwebs, or accuse me of making a "douche move". Obviously you can type whatever you want, but I would like to think that I'd afford you a little more respect if we traded places.

Again, truly sorry for any stress the process caused. I kind of fixed the buying process with the pre-order, but this batch was funny in that they were already made in a quantity that made sense at the time.

Hi Dave. Why you do this?

Jason
HALIOS

Sorry bro, it wasn’t at this point when I sent you the link...

...I owe you coffee, or maybe a whisky or two!

JDC222 wrote:

paipanic wrote:Well, apologies for another stressful experience for whoever tried to purchase one. The GMTs were produced long before the interest in the Seaforth blew up, so there were never many to begin with (a little under 100 pieces). I've been posting that quantities are pretty severely limited consistently on Instagram, but I guess I made a mistake in not reiterating on the order page that they would be tough to get. They're only being sold now because I had to redo the GMT hand (which, as I've read, many of you dislike). The subsequent batch of Seaforths was made available via pre-order, which I think alleviated the circus situation and made it much easier to buy a watch.

I didn't want to allocate all the GMTs privately to give folks a fair shot at getting one. Looks like I should have just done it privately, judging from the same sort of comments from folks who weren't able to get one. As for the cart sniping, etc....it was a little under 4000 people on the site at both order open times, vying for 100 pieces. I think the people who had the fastest internet connections and who had preloaded their Paypal info were the successful ones.

I think all comments are welcome and fair, including the ones about me not knowing how to run a business, that you're moving on from the brand, etc. etc. But I have to call one out: Andrea, don't call me a douche on the interwebs, or accuse me of making a "douche move". Obviously you can type whatever you want, but I would like to think that I'd afford you a little more respect if we traded places.

Again, truly sorry for any stress the process caused. I kind of fixed the buying process with the pre-order, but this batch was funny in that they were already made in a quantity that made sense at the time.

Hi Dave. Why you do this?

Jason
HALIOS

Sorry bro, it wasn’t at this point when I sent you the link...

...I owe you coffee, or maybe a whisky or two!

There isn't anything written here to be sorry for. Seriously. It's simple feedback from people who were trying to give money to a vendor for goods. Seems all here are being as open and honest as any thread here at dwc. Frankly it's been very civil sounding. Opinions stated and that's about it.

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ericf4 wrote:

JDC222 wrote:

paipanic wrote:Well, apologies for another stressful experience for whoever tried to purchase one. The GMTs were produced long before the interest in the Seaforth blew up, so there were never many to begin with (a little under 100 pieces). I've been posting that quantities are pretty severely limited consistently on Instagram, but I guess I made a mistake in not reiterating on the order page that they would be tough to get. They're only being sold now because I had to redo the GMT hand (which, as I've read, many of you dislike). The subsequent batch of Seaforths was made available via pre-order, which I think alleviated the circus situation and made it much easier to buy a watch.

I didn't want to allocate all the GMTs privately to give folks a fair shot at getting one. Looks like I should have just done it privately, judging from the same sort of comments from folks who weren't able to get one. As for the cart sniping, etc....it was a little under 4000 people on the site at both order open times, vying for 100 pieces. I think the people who had the fastest internet connections and who had preloaded their Paypal info were the successful ones.

I think all comments are welcome and fair, including the ones about me not knowing how to run a business, that you're moving on from the brand, etc. etc. But I have to call one out: Andrea, don't call me a douche on the interwebs, or accuse me of making a "douche move". Obviously you can type whatever you want, but I would like to think that I'd afford you a little more respect if we traded places.

Again, truly sorry for any stress the process caused. I kind of fixed the buying process with the pre-order, but this batch was funny in that they were already made in a quantity that made sense at the time.

Hi Dave. Why you do this?

Jason
HALIOS

Sorry bro, it wasn’t at this point when I sent you the link...

...I owe you coffee, or maybe a whisky or two!

There isn't anything written here to be sorry for. Seriously. It's simple feedback from people who were trying to give money to a vendor for goods. Seems all here are being as open and honest as any thread here at dwc. Frankly it's been very civil sounding. Opinions stated and that's about it.

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That’s not what my sorry was for. I sent Jason the link to the discussion (yes Matt, this is a discussion thread) earlier on, so he could read and respond to the comments.

No one likes to see their clients disappointed in their products or their business, hence my apology ...more of a “sorry you had to read that”.

Seppia wrote:

JDC222 wrote: No one likes to see their clients disappointed in their products or their business, hence my apology ...more of a “sorry you had to read that”.

As someone working in sales, I personally always want to hear from my customers what isn’t working.
Negative feedback is more important than positive.

I always tell my team when they whine about bitchy customers that positive feedback is what keeps you motivated, but negative feedback is what makes you better.

My experience tells me that when you have one or two people complaining about something, they are usually entitled whiners, but when a large amount of people are complaining, you have a problem you need to fix.

Lost in translation… I fully agree with what you are saying and it is necessary to hear and listen to negative feedback...but no one enjoys it.

Win some, lose some, breathe in, breathe out.

There will always be the next watch.

Jason has to do what works for him.

We all have to buy what works for us.

If the two meet, great. If not, there will be others and other opportunities. I didn’t get, but I do have preorders in for the next round.

The challenge is Jason’s products are hot right now. It’s taken him several years, and yes I bought when halios just started and we all had great things to say.

There are many business options for him, with varying risk rewards for him as he builds the brand. Does he strike while hot? Raise prices? Make more? How can he keep the balance of supply and demand? Change the buying process (lottery, reward systems, etc?).The credit is he is trying different things and will find the right combo of sales, reach and customer satisfaction.

Jason has this issue. Ming has this issue. Both great watches and growing brands that sell quickly. They have proven so far to be more than one or other short term hit wonders (and I am sure we can all name some of them).

I wish I got one. Wish the process worked for me. But, I know there are plenty more watches out there and many more “hot” ones coming.

To all the economy and finance and sales and marketing professionals posting opinions on how Jason should run his business, never forget to ask the client what are his goals. Clearly Jason has received a lot of feedback since the Seaforth came out, but it appears that he likes his business model as it is (pretty similar to a lot of other goods that we like here like limited knives and other shit that sell out quick).

If he wanted to expand, he would need capital and extra help, and that’s a headache that apparently he doesn’t want to deal with.

My only recommendation would be to raise the prices to stop the speculators trying to make a quick buck (Jason you can keep a list like Porsche or Ferrari and stop selling to those speculators).

No need to write off the brand just for this, grab one used and enjoy it!


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If this were easy, anyone would be doing it.

tmw wrote:If this were easy, anyone would be doing it.

Many are that shouldn't. Lol. Lots of shit brands out there. Not referring to Jason here though. Just shit micros in general of which there are plenty.

That reminds me, I gotta hop online at 2am to grab a Bagelsport. Lol. Hope I can get in.

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