Borrowed design article

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andrema
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Borrowed design article

Post by andrema » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 am

Last edited by andrema on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by HapaHapa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:55 am

Interesting. First thought is that this is how business works in China. Different mindset. Second thought is that Borealis bases (most of?) their designs on other historic designs, so don't get too worked up when another company does the same. Bummer though they also stole the mechanical design.

Now, all that aside it looks like Ellite Sun (who may be the same person as the other guy) has stolen use of the molds.

Sucks to do business overseas where you can't get them by the scruff of the neck and rattle their teeth, huh?
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by jtbenson » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:59 am

copy of a copy is still a copy

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by HapaHapa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:02 am

Yes, it is. Though China's govt sees that as a-ok. Hazard of doing business in China.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by JDC222 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:31 am

I was just in China. The “Apple Store” in the mall is not the Apple Store! It’s amazing to see that every product in the store is fake! iPads, iPhones, MacBooks...unreal!

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by andrema » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:37 am

Most, if not all, of the designs featured in the article are homage designs - A sub based design, a B&R based design...etc. So it is hard to argue that they are stolen. All of the watches are just a bit different between the two brands, so many will not have an issue. This has been happening with several brands and it is still happening. The catalog watch craze has been ongoing. I just found it interesting, the author's approach and all, along with the responses.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by Ryeguy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:35 am

I believe the crux of the author's post is the "rule" that says if you buy the mold, it is yours. I believe the author is misguided in this fundamental aspect. There is no "rule". There is only your contract with your supplier and your ability to enforce said contract.

First, I find it very hard to believe anyone would build a "mold" for only 300 stainless steel cases. Molds are very expensive and they wear out over time. For that short of a run, you would machine the cases.

If a mold was ever created, it would be one that was so rough, it could be used on any number of various designs. More of a "blank" than a "mold".

Where molds might be used would be to create something like this as posted on TZ-UK (I believe by Eddie P.)
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The only real purpose of this mold would be to reduce waste material and tool wear in the machining process. If waste and wear weren't a factor, you could just start with a length of billet.

The contract case manufacturer likely buys these case blanks in various rough shapes and sizes. They then work with designers using CAD tools to design the finished case shape. They then convert the design model into CNC machine code and let the multi-axis grinder cut the final shape.

What the brand owner is really "buying" isn't a physical "mold", but rather the CNC machine code. This code can be easily copied, shared, or distributed any number of times. The only control you as the brand owner have over that code, is the business contract (and contract enforcement ability) you have with your partner. A poorly written contract, or an inability to enforce the contract, can easily result in what we see here.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by HapaHapa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:39 am

^^^ good points
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by 59yukon01 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:07 am

This is no surprise. China has been stealing and copying all types of designs from from us for decades. Let's face it, America wanted affordable products made so we jumped in bed with them way back when, so these will be the consequences we face today.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by ericf4 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:31 am

andrema wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 am
Interesting article...about borrowing designs

https://28daysearlier.com/2017/10/26/wh ... ent-brand/

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Borealis is a total rip off of this Anonimo Marlin IMO, even the crown, hands etc.....

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by stonehead887 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:09 am

Seems to be a lot of focus on factory design borrow or copy but is the issue not rather the actions of Mr Lee? It seems outright that Mr Lee has blatantly stolen Borealis design concepts and production spec. To add insult to injury, he is laughing at Borealis and obviously doesn't care about other people, save they make him his own profit.
I don't own a Borealis, but hear from forums they are great watches. What Mr Lee cannot buy is brand loyalty. Whilst it wont stop Mr Lee, we can choose to support Borealis and NOT but anything by Mr Lee

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by tattoo chef » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:21 am

Ryeguy wrote:I believe the crux of the author's post is the "rule" that says if you buy the mold, it is yours. I believe the author is misguided in this fundamental aspect. There is no "rule". There is only your contract with your supplier and your ability to enforce said contract.

First, I find it very hard to believe anyone would build a "mold" for only 300 stainless steel cases. Molds are very expensive and they wear out over time. For that short of a run, you would machine the cases.

If a mold was ever created, it would be one that was so rough, it could be used on any number of various designs. More of a "blank" than a "mold".

Where molds might be used would be to create something like this as posted on TZ-UK (I believe by Eddie P.)
Image

The only real purpose of this mold would be to reduce waste material and tool wear in the machining process. If waste and wear weren't a factor, you could just start with a length of billet.

The contract case manufacturer likely buys these case blanks in various rough shapes and sizes. They then work with designers using CAD tools to design the finished case shape. They then convert the design model into CNC machine code and let the multi-axis grinder cut the final shape.

What the brand owner is really "buying" isn't a physical "mold", but rather the CNC machine code. This code can be easily copied, shared, or distributed any number of times. The only control you as the brand owner have over that code, is the business contract (and contract enforcement ability) you have with your partner. A poorly written contract, or an inability to enforce the contract, can easily result in what we see here.
Not from what Chris Vail posted on one of the groups.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by streetracer101 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:31 am

ericf4 wrote:
andrema wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 am
Interesting article...about borrowing designs

https://28daysearlier.com/2017/10/26/wh ... ent-brand/

Image
Borealis is a total rip off of this Anonimo Marlin IMO, even the crown, hands etc.....

Image
I thought it looked nimo-ish. These micros should STFU unless they are producing original products like Halios, Aegir, etc do.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by ericf4 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:36 am

I see the Divers watch FB group booted the Calvin Lee dude from the group today.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by Ryeguy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:44 am

I'd take what Chris Vail says with a grain of salt. I'd say most cases begin as either casts (from a mold) or stamped using a multi-ton press using a die.

Here is another example from Eddie Platt - his Dreadnaught case blank:
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The more precise your mold is, the less machining will be needed for finishing of the case. On the other hand, molds aren't cheap to make, so dividing the cost of a precise mold against only a couple hundred relatively inexpensive watch cases doesn't make sense.

316L isn't that expensive a material or that hard to machine. What makes sense to me (if I were a case factory) would be to invest in molds or press die's to make rough case blanks in a variety of generic sizes and shapes. Those I would have in inventory. I could then CNC machine the final shape easily for 300 or so cases.

My "design" team would steer the brand owner to make certain their design was able to leverage one of my stock blanks.

Given the popularity of Sub homages (such as what Chris V. produces), he may be seeing precision molds being used as that case design is so popular.

For the more unique designs such as the Anonimo Eric referenced (and Borealis "homaged"), I've got to think it began life as a casting or stamping and then was machined.

Here is a good (albeit old) thread (again from Eddie P.) on how Fricker does it. http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?1 ... it+fricker

For the TL/DR crowd, Fricker machines their blanks from billet on a CNC, then CNC's the finished shape.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by CGSshorty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:44 am

ericf4 wrote:I see the Divers watch FB group booted the Calvin Lee dude from the group today.
Did he post a wrist shot of a pilot watch?
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by ericf4 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:45 am

lol that will do it...

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by CGSshorty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:37 am

It’s pretty funny that they’re upset about this, but fake Seikos are just fine.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by rockmastermike » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:52 am

Pot calling kettle black
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by 59yukon01 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:27 pm

Wasn't he the same putz that was OK with the Merkur and Sharkey Tuna and MM300 copies? Seems there are at least 3 different names I believe cloning them now.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by dnslater » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:57 pm

rockmastermike wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:52 am
Pot calling kettle black
Yeah, this is all very amusing. Omega, Marathon and Rolex/Tudor have also stolen original Borealis designs over time.
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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by gwells » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:57 pm

maybe those "sponsors" ponied up more money/toys than these guys did.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by tattoo chef » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:18 pm

dnslater wrote:
rockmastermike wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:52 am
Pot calling kettle black
Yeah, this is all very amusing. Blancpain, Marathon and Rolex/Tudor have also stolen original Borealis designs over time.
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This is not about designs.
If you don’t like copies/homages etc, fair enough.

This is about the manufacturer of Borealis Watches taking the cases from various Borealis models they produced and slapped on a different brand name and started selling them.

Whether you like Borealis or not or or their watches, it’s still pretty crappy if you are in business and your manufacturer screws you over.


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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by dnslater » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:25 pm

tattoo chef wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:18 pm

This is not about designs.
If you don’t like copies/homages etc, fair enough.

This is about the manufacturer of Borealis Watches taking the cases from various Borealis models they produced and slapped on a different brand name and started selling them.

Whether you like Borealis or not or or their watches, it’s still pretty crappy if you are in business and your manufacturer screws you over.

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I agree that it is pretty shitty of the manufacturer, I'm just pointing out that designs are also intellectual property. Some value it more or less than more tangible molds and as a design professional they both bother me. Chinese watch mills have been playing this game with their clients for years, so microbrands shouldn't be that surprised.

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Re: Borrowed design article

Post by ericf4 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:32 pm

I think Borealis shouldn't get butt hurt especially when they rip off actual designs from Tudor etc.....What comes around goes around i guess.

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