The state of the Micro watch industry

Discussion of microbrand watches
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by ericf4 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:31 am

thats no fight........2////// always 2
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by T. Wong » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:06 pm

Not sure where Chinese made watches falls in category. Several years ago Alpha watches came on the scene and even had a Cal. rep selling them. Most such watches are now sold on ebay i.e. Parnis.

Recently a brand called Merkur from Beijing is getting growing attention with its Seiko MM and Tuna inspired models. For under $200 or so many guys are blown away (over a Chinese made watch! ). Granted, it is alway safer to buy a known brand, but the rising prices on the continuing watch trend make buying them counterproductive hahah! Japan and Seiko are now rushing out new models and more and more quality control issues are becoming apparent.

I bought a used Seiko Tuna for $700 and flipped it. Then this week I found the Merkur version (albeit 200m), read the posts on WUS DIVE Watches section, and ordered one for $169usd free shipping to Japan! Will be curious to see if i like it :)

Bought a Borealis Estoril for $500 dilivered and was pleased with it. Bought 2 Parnis -a sub and GMT Rolex homage- and was satisfied for $87usd each. If the usual Micro brands disappear, China will be there to offer better and better watches IMO.

ImageMerkur tuna by toypoodleKimi, on Flickr

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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by r.palace » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:13 pm

T. Wong wrote:
ImageMerkur tuna by toypoodleKimi, on Flickr
Kill it with fire
ImageImage
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by Morethan1 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:11 pm

r.palace wrote:
T. Wong wrote:
ImageMerkur tuna by toypoodleKimi, on Flickr
Kill it with fire
Change the dial and done.
=D

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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by MtnMdc » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:04 am

I have 2 Manchester Watch Works watches and I love them. Micro brands are definitely not for everyone. MWW has been around since 2013 I think. I have a seiko that I have had for 17 years and is still running strong. Anyway just my 2 cents

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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by Champagne InHand » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:24 pm

T. Wong wrote:Not sure where Chinese made watches falls in category. Several years ago Alpha watches came on the scene and even had a Cal. rep selling them. Most such watches are now sold on ebay i.e. Parnis.

Recently a brand called Merkur from Beijing is getting growing attention with its Seiko MM and Tuna inspired models. For under $200 or so many guys are blown away (over a Chinese made watch! ). Granted, it is alway safer to buy a known brand, but the rising prices on the continuing watch trend make buying them counterproductive hahah! Japan and Seiko are now rushing out new models and more and more quality control issues are becoming apparent.

I bought a used Seiko Tuna for $700 and flipped it. Then this week I found the Merkur version (albeit 200m), read the posts on WUS DIVE Watches section, and ordered one for $169usd free shipping to Japan! Will be curious to see if i like it :)

Bought a Borealis Estoril for $500 dilivered and was pleased with it. Bought 2 Parnis -a sub and GMT Rolex homage- and was satisfied for $87usd each. If the usual Micro brands disappear, China will be there to offer better and better watches IMO.

ImageMerkur tuna by toypoodleKimi, on Flickr

This is a great thread and I’m glad I found it. I do agree that most will be gone. I am bummed about Helson. I have a Blackbead that I bought on sale during the holiday season just over 4 years ago. It’s Miyota 9015 isn’t very loud which drives me crazy. I am okay with my NTH Amphion just because the model is so great with detail, I just wish it were 41-42mm. It’s rotor is annoying though.

I’ve thought about Zelos, and quite a few others. I was up for the Hamtun H2 Kraken, but saw that they were going to change the clasp to a Strapcode Miltat style 4 button with slide out divers extension. I hate the way that clasp works. I bought one for a Seiko Turtle and was saddened as the Oyster bracelet is great minus that clasp. So I ordered a Steinhart Ocean 500 GMT.

I do think of Steinhart as a micro brand that became more mainstream, which should happen for the few that survive. Steinhart only has one designer, plus Gunter and 3 full time watchmakers. So if you have a QC problem, which seem to happen with GMTs you can ask for 1 of the 3 watchmakers when sending it back. That to me say micro, but moving mainstream as the rarely run out of watches for more than 4 weeks.

I see Zelos having a good following. Manchester Watch Works, Melbourne Watch Works and quite a few others mentioned as going a bit mainstream, unless like Helson, where things fall apart for several years.

I don’t even know if I could sell my Blackbeard, not that I want to, because of so many horror stories that the people start or comment on forums like WUS. 4 year ago Helson was in its prime. People were dropping almost $1K and we were still in recession.

For me I see a lot of quality design in some of the French micro brands. Akrone though their newest design look a bit light and artsy. They at least have a yearly plan on style. They will do group watches to make ends meet.

While trying to get a contract with Sellita, they can use Miyota in their C-lines. It beats quartz though most would rather they stick to Seiko.

Prometheus makes some nice watches and has the following. The king named Italian Mech.... has a few big fans but they are all on the affordable threads.

You see massive love to the Chinese from Merkur, Sharkey making cloned Tuna, MM300, Turtles with an actual regulated NH35 with Sapphire and better quality control than you actually get from Seiko at well more than 2-3 times the price. These guys are willing to wait for the 1-3 month shipping from mainland China as long as the quality is there.

Another Chinese brand that is being gobbled up is San Martin. They have dedicated social media employees that get anybody with questions on a post to the right link on eBay.

So if micro brands don’t keep up their quality they will be copied by some Chinese companies that will watch their QC for higher price and then bulk sell to vendors on Aliexpress or Taobao.

There are still many trying to navigate Taobao and dropping good money getting a post box in mainland China and paying an expediting service to buy the Sea-Gull watch not available through Island watches or Aliexpress. They also want better quality watches from Shanghai and Beijing Watch companies. Soon somebody will get their sports watches to the West.

This tells me that people want some good micros to more up to the Steinhart level, but that takes management, vision of the future, which don’t come cheap or from a group of enthusiasts that don’t see enough profits to keep their families happy as it’s usually a full time plus job as management. Putting out fires, getting design and QC to work together with laborers on assembly. That usually means a Chinese citizen that’s familiar enough with expectations and cultural barriers between lower paid laborers.

I hope these few microbrands make the Steinhart transition. If Gunter passes and QC drops out like at Helson then Steinhart a ghost too. I don’t know if Helson will survive because watch buyers spook easy. Just look at them freak out over Invicta buying Glycine. The can’t be told that this is a good thing and mean lower prices for existing quality.


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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by Graeme » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:07 am

Champagne InHand wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:24 pm


.....

This tells me that people want some good micros to more up to the Steinhart level, but that takes management, vision of the future, which don’t come cheap or from a group of enthusiasts that don’t see enough profits to keep their families happy as it’s usually a full time plus job as management. Putting out fires, getting design and QC to work together with laborers on assembly. That usually means a Chinese citizen that’s familiar enough with expectations and cultural barriers between lower paid laborers.

I hope these few microbrands make the Steinhart transition. If Gunter passes and QC drops out like at Helson then Steinhart a ghost too. I don’t know if Helson will survive because watch buyers spook easy. Just look at them freak out over Invicta buying Glycine. The can’t be told that this is a good thing and mean lower prices for existing quality.


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Steinhart is a great brand but they have something all us other micros would love... volume. Gunther has done a fantastic job building up the brand that he has a huge volume of watches going out every week, and this has huge knock on effects. I had lunch with Gunther last year at Basel and was blown away with his sales per week and what it costs for him to produce a watch purely because of scale. He can produce a whole watch including packaging and shipping cheaper than I can get just the movement. He also has a great deal with fedex because he ships so many per week, he pays €5 anywhere in the world, I pay €50 - €80 depending on country. I have a hard drive full of original designs but until I can build up to a higher volume and get the costs down they will never see the light of day. I would love nothing more than to sell at that level.
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by pbj204 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:45 am

Champagne InHand wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:24 pm

I don’t even know if I could sell my Blackbeard, not that I want to, because of so many horror stories that the people start or comment on forums like WUS. 4 year ago Helson was in its prime. People were dropping almost $1K and we were still in recession.

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I have owned some Helsons in the past and they were actually quite good.

This past Christmas sale I bought a 40mm sharkdiver. It was a piece of crap. I sold it on Ebay cheap. At the price that I sold it for the buyer is probably still happy with it though. Selling on Ebay sucks, but I didn't want to sell it on the forums.

They need a new manufacturer.

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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by Joeprez » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:00 am

Really sucks to hear that. I had a 40mm shark diver which I enjoyed a lot. I've actually been thinking about grabbing this one:

Image

Before it is mentioned, yes, it would look way better without the date.

38mm case (these all wear bigger than the specs), Ti case (grade 1 apparently, so softer than the Pelagos which is grade 2), full Ti bracelet and ratcheting clasp. Plus the blue looks great (also comes in black).

Full Specs from the Helson website:

--Case: Brushed or Blasted Titanium, Ø 38 mm - height 11.4 mm - lug distance 20 mm - lug to lug length 46 mm, weight 126g on bracelet
--Brushed or blasted SS screwed crown w. side protection
--Sapphire crystal: 2.2 mm thick - inside AR coated.
--Bezel: Ti turning bezel with aluminum / Ti bezel insert
--Case back: brushed or blasted titanium
--Water resistance: 300m/1000 ft
--Dial, hands and bezel coated with Swiss SuperLuminova
--Strap: Brushed or blasted 20 mm titanium bracelet with 18mm steel ratcheting clasp and 20mm rubber strap with 20mm Ti buckle
--Movement: 24 Jewel Japanese Miyota 9015 automatic
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Omega / Tudor / Rolex / Sinn / Doxa / Seiko

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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by manitoujoe » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:06 am

Weird. Never had an issue with any Helson.


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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by BacoNoir » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:01 pm

manitoujoe wrote:Weird. Never had an issue with any Helson.


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Bought one last year and sold it within a couple of months. Hardly wore it. Winding the ETA was gritty, which drove me nuts.
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by Joeprez » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:41 pm

manitoujoe wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:06 am
Weird. Never had an issue with any Helson.


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I didn't have any issues with mine either. Mine felt comparable to other micros or Seikos of the same price point.
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by manitoujoe » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:56 pm

The Sharkdiver seems to be a good watch for them. Comes in several sizes, case materials and movements. You can actually get the style and set up you want with no issues. I dig ‘em.


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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by Watchpassion » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:24 pm

I bought my first micro 15 years ago, a brand out of new zealand called magrette, panerai style case, clean and crisp dial design and reasonably good quality with hand wound chinese movement and he is still around with some amazing designs, i got back into the scene 3 years ago when i discovered newer brands on kickstarter, yes i do believe many enthusiasts try their hand at developing and launching their own brands, 70% will take the easy way out and go for a pre existing design that their manufacturer will offer, 20% will design based on more popular models, 10% will come up with real unique designs, with good comes the bad and ugly. micros have to start scaling up to become mid tier companies this is the only way you can survive, you remain a micro for too long you risk getting extinct, the only motivation to continue and scale up when you start seeing the rewards of your hard work. i think there are some exceptional brands and designs out there but 90% of them do not have the stock to supply these. if there is more awareness and customers opt to support microbrands with increase in the market segment i am sure we will continue to see increased action in this space. A very discussion point.

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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by JDC222 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:41 pm

Watchpassion wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:24 pm
I bought my first micro 15 years ago, a brand out of new zealand called magrette, panerai style case, clean and crisp dial design and reasonably good quality with hand wound chinese movement and he is still around with some amazing designs, i got back into the scene 3 years ago when i discovered newer brands on kickstarter, yes i do believe many enthusiasts try their hand at developing and launching their own brands, 70% will take the easy way out and go for a pre existing design that their manufacturer will offer, 20% will design based on more popular models, 10% will come up with real unique designs, with good comes the bad and ugly. micros have to start scaling up to become mid tier companies this is the only way you can survive, you remain a micro for too long you risk getting extinct, the only motivation to continue and scale up when you start seeing the rewards of your hard work. i think there are some exceptional brands and designs out there but 90% of them do not have the stock to supply these. if there is more awareness and customers opt to support microbrands with increase in the market segment i am sure we will continue to see increased action in this space. A very discussion point.
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Re: The state of the Micro watch industry

Post by MikeyLikesIt » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:58 pm

Watchpassion wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:24 pm
A very discussion point.
Indeed

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