You want drama...

[BBK357]

Damn... $35 movement in a 23k watch?

[CGSshorty]

Damn... $35 movement in a 23k watch?

Not really. When it was new it was closer to a $2k watch. That $23k # is absurd.

[BBK357]

Ok that's better but crap what a cheap movement.

[CGSshorty]

Ok that's better but crap what a cheap movement.

It is a Unitas 6497. They have been in use forever in some very expensive watches.

[fastward]

Damn... $35 movement in a 23k watch?

Sounds like a Panerai LE to me.

[Expat]

I think we're bashing Pam a bit here. There's plenty of vintage Rolex that sell for way more than 10 and even 20x original cost. Simple no complication, like the Subs, or standard chronos. How about a $75k Newman Daytona.

This was a very limited number piece that plays a cool place in Panerai's development. If you value its right there with Rolex.

The 2 things that amaze me are:

Buying a $23k watch, in market flooded with fakes and frankens, without having it looked over before buying it. You're not buying this as a beach beater, its an investment, even if you wear it.

The fact the guy tried to flip it for a profit, couldn't sell it, then did this. If he came into me when I was in economic crime, I would tell him to sue the guy if wants redress. I wouldn't waste 10 minutes of an investigators time on it, because his story stinks too.

[demer03]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

[Panerai7]

I think we're bashing Pam a bit here. There's plenty of vintage Rolex that sell for way more than 10 and even 20x original cost. Simple no complication, like the Subs, or standard chronos. How about a $75k Newman Daytona.

This was a very limited number piece that plays a cool place in Panerai's development. If you value its right there with Rolex.

The 2 things that amaze me are:

Buying a $23k watch, in market flooded with fakes and frankens, without having it looked over before buying it. You're not buying this as a beach beater, its an investment, even if you wear it.

The fact the guy tried to flip it for a profit, couldn't sell it, then did this. If he came into me when I was in economic crime, I would tell him to sue the guy if wants redress. I wouldn't waste 10 minutes of an investigators time on it, because his story stinks too.

+1 Bill +1

[Panerai7]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

[demer03]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

[Expat]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex wasn't Rolex either when Comex was selling Subs to there guys for $300.

[CGSshorty]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

Yes, those shitty bracelets and fucked up dials are amazing testaments to Rolex quality.

[demer03]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

Yes, those shitty bracelets and fucked up dials are amazing testaments to Rolex quality.

Your fantasy....make it how you want

[CGSshorty]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

Yes, those shitty bracelets and fucked up dials are amazing testaments to Rolex quality.

Your fantasy....make it how you want

Really Mike? Are you going to make the argument that the bracelet from any Rolex made before the last few years was a high quality bracelet? Guys use fantasy to justify that a watch with a cracked dial and saggy bracelet are worth a fortune all the time. Is it only Rolex that gets to use fantasy to justify high secondary prices?
I am certainly not saying that the Panerai in question should ever have sold for what it did, but lots of shitty watches sell for questionable prices all the time.

[zepp21]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

Yes, those shitty bracelets and fucked up dials are amazing testaments to Rolex quality.

It's a "spider" or "tropic" dial and it adds character and value to a watch. Now open the crown on the zero, let some moisture in, and watch the value skyrocket

[demer03]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

Yes, those shitty bracelets and fucked up dials are amazing testaments to Rolex quality.

Your fantasy....make it how you want

Really Mike? Are you going to make the argument that the bracelet from any Rolex made before the last few years was a high quality bracelet? Guys use fantasy to justify that a watch with a cracked dial and saggy bracelet are worth a fortune all the time. Is it only Rolex that gets to use fantasy to justify high secondary prices?
I am certainly not saying that the Panerai in question should ever have sold for what it did, but lots of shitty watches sell for questionable prices all the time.

All kidding aside, Yeah, I don't think 40-50 year old watches are expected to look new. The "effects you see today are often due to their use....not shitty construction. The fact that Rolex nuts, like P nuts create these "rare" named conditions is a weird situation that only goofy WIS's could imagine. We'll see what "new Panerai" look like when they get there.

Again, I am not disparaging P at all. It is just not the same as a company like R with the horsepower/service/manufacturing/ etc. That's all I'm saying.

They make a perfectly fine wristwatch, but hello? Brooklyn?? Shit happens in manufacturing, but I guess I still see P as a reincarnation of a former company that relied on a perceived history to come back.

I am not bashing....but to compare the two corporations seems a bit silly.

My opinion, and not that of DWC nor any of it's sponsors.

[CGSshorty]

You are right Mike, Richemont may as well be a backyard mechanic shop compared to Rolex.

[demer03]

*sigh*

You are putting words in my mouth....

Both good....not the same.

[matt.wu]

I don't think Mike's original argument was that Panerai sucks compared to Rolex. But comparing this faux-vintage Panerai (10-20 year old watches with EASILY currently sourced mass-produced movement = vintage and $20k???) to actual vintage Rolex (many watches which have a documented history and place within horology or cultural history - i.e. Newman Daytona) and saying they're somehow on par is making an argument for argument's sake. No one in their right logical mind can say that they're the same, even if you don't get Rolex or don't get vintage.

I got no dog in the fight. These days, I am more heavy on Panerai than Rolex, but you can't deny the difference in the way the companies (or fanboys of the companies) are using the word vintage. Now, if we were talking Panerai 6154 or any other ACTUAL vintage, that'd be different. But we're talking stupid "Pre-V" or "Pre-A" which are virtually identical to the watches that they mass produce today yet somehow command a premium because some Paneristi nerd proclaimed them extra special.

Leave the poor guy alone.

[demer03]

Leave the poor guy alone.

Now, let's talk Kobold....

[matt.wu]

Leave the poor guy alone.

Now, let's talk Kobold....

Now Kobold, not even I can bring myself to defend. I love the watches a lot, but the company blows in pretty much every respect these days.

[demer03]

Yep. Too bad he peaked and crashed.

[JP Chestnut]

Panerai is not Rolex.....

Rolex is nothing special either.
It's a mass-priduced high quality product with minimal involvement of a human watchmaker.
At least Panerai is somewhat limited in production numbers. I think they make more Rolex Subs than Honda Accords.

Sorry. I like P...I really do.

But...I do believe Rolex is way above them on many levels. Panerai make some cool stuff, but it is comparing apples and oranges in my humble opinion.

Yes, those shitty bracelets and fucked up dials are amazing testaments to Rolex quality.

Your fantasy....make it how you want

Really Mike? Are you going to make the argument that the bracelet from any Rolex made before the last few years was a high quality bracelet? Guys use fantasy to justify that a watch with a cracked dial and saggy bracelet are worth a fortune all the time. Is it only Rolex that gets to use fantasy to justify high secondary prices?
I am certainly not saying that the Panerai in question should ever have sold for what it did, but lots of shitty watches sell for questionable prices all the time.

...but I guess I still see P as a reincarnation of a former company that relied on a perceived history to come back.

This is an interesting comment because it perfectly matches my (admittedly ignorant) opinion of the brand. Can someone knowledgeable confirm or refute that current Panerai is a purchased name reincarnation of the original company?

[matt.wu]

This is an interesting comment because it perfectly matches my (admittedly ignorant) opinion of the brand. Can someone knowledgeable confirm or refute that current Panerai is a purchased name reincarnation of the original company?

Oversimplified..... it is.

[zepp21]

Yep. Too bad he peaked and crashed.

Kobolds wouldn't be the only one. Doxa also comes to mind.