You want drama...

[logan2z]

The Associative Law of Drama is clearly real. Drama is never destroyed or created, it simply changes forums.

Wouldn't that be the Law of Conservation of Drama?

[Expat]

The Associative Law of Drama is clearly real. Drama is never destroyed or created, it simply changes forums.

Wouldn't that be the Law of Conservation of Drama?

I was philosophy/aesthetics major. I do my best.

[logan2z]

I believe the company was still operating and producing watches, albeit in a much more modest way than IWC and JLC. But I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there has been continuity in terms of the company's existence.

Some additional info here:

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

Good to know. I misunderstood it as a purchase of a dead company. Thanks!

While not exactly encyclopedic, this seems to suggest that might be the case:

Things get a bit hazy here, but as far as I can see the equipment manufacturing end of Officine Panerai drifted out of business after the end of the Second World War.

In 1993 Officine Panerai started to reproduce the Luminor, and the Mare Nostrum chronograph, basically targetted at the collector's market. These were produced only in very limited numbers.

In 1997 Officine Panerai were acquired by the Vendôme group. Under the new bosses basically the same models were produced, still in small numbers. However in a clever marketing move, a few "unique editions" were produced each year, with an intriguing movement or case design.

So what watches where Panerai producing prior to the reintroduction of these models in 1993?

Basically what I was getting at.

Panerai was probably producing the same number of watches as A. Lange and Sohne were producing between 1948 and 1994 - zero. That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Lange's reputation or historical significance in the eyes of watch collectors.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1948, the post-war Soviet administration expropriated the company's property, and the Lange brand ceased to exist. However, in 1990, following the collapse of the East German government, the founder's great-grandson, Walter Lange, together with watch industry executive Günter Blümlein, restored the company with the assistance of several Swiss watch manufacturers, including IWC and Jaeger Le Coultre. The refounded Lange, again operating from Glashütte, presented its first range of wrist watches in 1994."

[dshap]

I believe the company was still operating and producing watches, albeit in a much more modest way than IWC and JLC. But I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there has been continuity in terms of the company's existence.

Some additional info here:

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

Good to know. I misunderstood it as a purchase of a dead company. Thanks!

While not exactly encyclopedic, this seems to suggest that might be the case:

Things get a bit hazy here, but as far as I can see the equipment manufacturing end of Officine Panerai drifted out of business after the end of the Second World War.

In 1993 Officine Panerai started to reproduce the Luminor, and the Mare Nostrum chronograph, basically targetted at the collector's market. These were produced only in very limited numbers.

In 1997 Officine Panerai were acquired by the Vendôme group. Under the new bosses basically the same models were produced, still in small numbers. However in a clever marketing move, a few "unique editions" were produced each year, with an intriguing movement or case design.

So what watches where Panerai producing prior to the reintroduction of these models in 1993?

Basically what I was getting at.

Panerai was probably producing the same number of watches as A. Lange and Sohne were producing between 1948 and 1994 - zero. That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Lange's reputation or historical significance in the eyes of watch collectors.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1948, the post-war Soviet administration expropriated the company's property, and the Lange brand ceased to exist. However, in 1990, following the collapse of the East German government, the founder's great-grandson, Walter Lange, together with watch industry executive Günter Blümlein, restored the company with the assistance of several Swiss watch manufacturers, including IWC and Jaeger Le Coultre. The refounded Lange, again operating from Glashütte, presented its first range of wrist watches in 1994."

The new Lange produced watches that pushed the bounds of horology right out of the gate. Panerai pushed the bounds of case size, so it's not really a comparison of apples to apples.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with Panerai, they're just no Lange.

[Panerai7]

I believe the company was still operating and producing watches, albeit in a much more modest way than IWC and JLC. But I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there has been continuity in terms of the company's existence.

Some additional info here:

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

Good to know. I misunderstood it as a purchase of a dead company. Thanks!

While not exactly encyclopedic, this seems to suggest that might be the case:

Things get a bit hazy here, but as far as I can see the equipment manufacturing end of Officine Panerai drifted out of business after the end of the Second World War.

In 1993 Officine Panerai started to reproduce the Luminor, and the Mare Nostrum chronograph, basically targetted at the collector's market. These were produced only in very limited numbers.

In 1997 Officine Panerai were acquired by the Vendôme group. Under the new bosses basically the same models were produced, still in small numbers. However in a clever marketing move, a few "unique editions" were produced each year, with an intriguing movement or case design.

So what watches where Panerai producing prior to the reintroduction of these models in 1993?

Basically what I was getting at.

Panerai was probably producing the same number of watches as A. Lange and Sohne were producing between 1948 and 1994 - zero. That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Lange's reputation or historical significance in the eyes of watch collectors.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1948, the post-war Soviet administration expropriated the company's property, and the Lange brand ceased to exist. However, in 1990, following the collapse of the East German government, the founder's great-grandson, Walter Lange, together with watch industry executive Günter Blümlein, restored the company with the assistance of several Swiss watch manufacturers, including IWC and Jaeger Le Coultre. The refounded Lange, again operating from Glashütte, presented its first range of wrist watches in 1994."

The new Lange produced watches that pushed the bounds of horology right out of the gate. Panerai pushed the bounds of case size, so it's not really a comparison of apples to apples.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with Panerai, they're just no Lange.

Oh please since we're shooting shit and throwing everyone under the bus. I heard when I was growing up that some models of ВОСТОК and ПОЛЁТ and МОЛНИЯ were made in GDR, same place where your coveted Lange is made now by the same watchmakers, so there who's is cretin now for paying 20K+ for ALS?
Here you go ALS mechanical alarm, better than JLC

[demer03]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

[zepp21]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

well look at the name! Of course someone would get a bit wound if they were a fanboi. Doxa ring a bell?

[fastward]

I don't get Panerai and rarely see them out in the wild, except for NYC.

Plenty of Rolex, Omega and Timex on my travels. I do believe that I have actually seen more Breitlings.

[JP Chestnut]

I believe the company was still operating and producing watches, albeit in a much more modest way than IWC and JLC. But I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there has been continuity in terms of the company's existence.

Some additional info here:

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

Good to know. I misunderstood it as a purchase of a dead company. Thanks!

While not exactly encyclopedic, this seems to suggest that might be the case:

Things get a bit hazy here, but as far as I can see the equipment manufacturing end of Officine Panerai drifted out of business after the end of the Second World War.

In 1993 Officine Panerai started to reproduce the Luminor, and the Mare Nostrum chronograph, basically targetted at the collector's market. These were produced only in very limited numbers.

In 1997 Officine Panerai were acquired by the Vendôme group. Under the new bosses basically the same models were produced, still in small numbers. However in a clever marketing move, a few "unique editions" were produced each year, with an intriguing movement or case design.

So what watches where Panerai producing prior to the reintroduction of these models in 1993?

Basically what I was getting at.

Panerai was probably producing the same number of watches as A. Lange and Sohne were producing between 1948 and 1994 - zero. That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Lange's reputation or historical significance in the eyes of watch collectors.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1948, the post-war Soviet administration expropriated the company's property, and the Lange brand ceased to exist. However, in 1990, following the collapse of the East German government, the founder's great-grandson, Walter Lange, together with watch industry executive Günter Blümlein, restored the company with the assistance of several Swiss watch manufacturers, including IWC and Jaeger Le Coultre. The refounded Lange, again operating from Glashütte, presented its first range of wrist watches in 1994."

I think the Panerai/Rolex and ALS/Patek comparisons are fairly equivalent. One brand has been continuously operated and privately owned while the other has been reborn and is now owned by a luxury goods holding company. To some people that distinction is important and for others it is not - I know I purchased my first Rolex partly due to the mystic of continuous private ownership.

[demer03]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

well look at the name! Of course someone would get a bit wound if they were a fanboi. Doxa ring a bell?

You know, Doxa is a worse case than Kobold. Mike has some challenges, but the "two guys and a case of beer" crew are well and truly clueless...

[unixshrk]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

well look at the name! Of course someone would get a bit wound if they were a fanboi. Doxa ring a bell?

You know, Doxa is a worse case than Kobold. Mike has some challenges, but the "two guys and a case of beer" crew are well and truly clueless...

hahaha challenges

[zepp21]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

well look at the name! Of course someone would get a bit wound if they were a fanboi. Doxa ring a bell?

You know, Doxa is a worse case than Kobold. Mike has some challenges, but the "two guys and a case of beer" crew are well and truly clueless...

Mike doesn't have any challenges. He just needs to realize who his market is and that his watches aren't worth what he perceives.

[logan2z]

I believe the company was still operating and producing watches, albeit in a much more modest way than IWC and JLC. But I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there has been continuity in terms of the company's existence.

Some additional info here:

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

Good to know. I misunderstood it as a purchase of a dead company. Thanks!

While not exactly encyclopedic, this seems to suggest that might be the case:

Things get a bit hazy here, but as far as I can see the equipment manufacturing end of Officine Panerai drifted out of business after the end of the Second World War.

In 1993 Officine Panerai started to reproduce the Luminor, and the Mare Nostrum chronograph, basically targetted at the collector's market. These were produced only in very limited numbers.

In 1997 Officine Panerai were acquired by the Vendôme group. Under the new bosses basically the same models were produced, still in small numbers. However in a clever marketing move, a few "unique editions" were produced each year, with an intriguing movement or case design.

So what watches where Panerai producing prior to the reintroduction of these models in 1993?

Basically what I was getting at.

Panerai was probably producing the same number of watches as A. Lange and Sohne were producing between 1948 and 1994 - zero. That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Lange's reputation or historical significance in the eyes of watch collectors.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1948, the post-war Soviet administration expropriated the company's property, and the Lange brand ceased to exist. However, in 1990, following the collapse of the East German government, the founder's great-grandson, Walter Lange, together with watch industry executive Günter Blümlein, restored the company with the assistance of several Swiss watch manufacturers, including IWC and Jaeger Le Coultre. The refounded Lange, again operating from Glashütte, presented its first range of wrist watches in 1994."

I think the Panerai/Rolex and ALS/Patek comparisons are fairly equivalent. One brand has been continuously operated and privately owned while the other has been reborn and is now owned by a luxury goods holding company. To some people that distinction is important and for others it is not - I know I purchased my first Rolex partly due to the mystic of continuous private ownership.

Right, that's the only point I was trying to make. I certainly didn't mean to imply that Panerai is the horological equivalent of ALS.

[matt.wu]

I believe the company was still operating and producing watches, albeit in a much more modest way than IWC and JLC. But I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there has been continuity in terms of the company's existence.

Some additional info here:

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

Good to know. I misunderstood it as a purchase of a dead company. Thanks!

While not exactly encyclopedic, this seems to suggest that might be the case:

Things get a bit hazy here, but as far as I can see the equipment manufacturing end of Officine Panerai drifted out of business after the end of the Second World War.

In 1993 Officine Panerai started to reproduce the Luminor, and the Mare Nostrum chronograph, basically targetted at the collector's market. These were produced only in very limited numbers.

In 1997 Officine Panerai were acquired by the Vendôme group. Under the new bosses basically the same models were produced, still in small numbers. However in a clever marketing move, a few "unique editions" were produced each year, with an intriguing movement or case design.

So what watches where Panerai producing prior to the reintroduction of these models in 1993?

Basically what I was getting at.

Panerai was probably producing the same number of watches as A. Lange and Sohne were producing between 1948 and 1994 - zero. That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Lange's reputation or historical significance in the eyes of watch collectors.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1948, the post-war Soviet administration expropriated the company's property, and the Lange brand ceased to exist. However, in 1990, following the collapse of the East German government, the founder's great-grandson, Walter Lange, together with watch industry executive Günter Blümlein, restored the company with the assistance of several Swiss watch manufacturers, including IWC and Jaeger Le Coultre. The refounded Lange, again operating from Glashütte, presented its first range of wrist watches in 1994."

I think the Panerai/Rolex and ALS/Patek comparisons are fairly equivalent. One brand has been continuously operated and privately owned while the other has been reborn and is now owned by a luxury goods holding company. To some people that distinction is important and for others it is not - I know I purchased my first Rolex partly due to the mystic of continuous private ownership.

Right, that's the only point I was trying to make. I certainly didn't mean to imply that Panerai is the horological equivalent of ALS.

Surprisingly or not, I actually do not hold ALS in high historical regard at all for the exact reason you stated.

[dukerules]

Random thoughts:
The modern AL&S is a fabrication, as is GO.
The original company produced Hitler's wristwatch of choice.
I still think it is one of top four current manufactures in the world.
I'll never be able to afford one.
The "vintage" Panerai bubble is rapidly bursting.
Vintage Panerai to me means watches from the 1930s-1950s.
The early 90s Panerai stuff is cool, but I'm not buying any of it.
Comparing 90s Panerai to true vintage Rolex is silly, for the reasons on which Matt elaborated.

[Panerai7]

I hope the bubble will burst I'll get another one or two.
To each is own

[mechnut]

Not that this matters, but Panerai, as a company, was owned and operated by members of the Panerai family from its founding in 1860 by Giovanni Panerai until 1972 when Dino Zei took over the firm. In 1993, Zei sold the company to the Vendome Group (Richemont).

[rain_maker]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

well look at the name! Of course someone would get a bit wound if they were a fanboi. Doxa ring a bell?

http://lifehacker.com/the-psychology-of ... 1300451596

[Panerai7]

We're sinking fast, Captain!

well look at the name! Of course someone would get a bit wound if they were a fanboi. Doxa ring a bell?

http://lifehacker.com/the-psychology-of ... 1300451596

Well since I don't only buy Panerai I guess I don't qualify as a fanboy, damn it.
I think I'm gonna start drooling over a wabi sub with a missing lume pip

[Panerai7]

Mmmm, yes

[matt.wu]

Mmmm, yes

Fits in nicely for the sake of example, but that turd isn't worth anything to anybody. Same with the spider dials that folks like to reference - they do NOT increase value of vintage Rolex.

The only truly silly thing that actually does increase value right now is the "tropical" affect, but that's a fleeting trend.

[Panerai7]

Mmmm, yes

Fits in nicely for the sake of example, but that turd isn't worth anything to anybody. Same with the spider dials that folks like to reference - they do NOT increase value of vintage Rolex.

The only truly silly thing that actually does increase value right now is the "tropical" affect, but that's a fleeting trend.

I hear ya, I'm just kidding around, who cares what people are in to these days.
But... When someone is drooling over 372 and knocks on older Pam at the same time, which that very 372 is mimicking I don't know what to say.
Anyway my participation in this thread is over
Cheers.

[Slipkid]

Getting back to the OP, seems to me Clive is an unstable individual and had buyer's remorse...aka, "Why in the frack did I spend almost $24k on a watch????" His intended flip did not work out and he misrepresented the watch and got caught...sour grapes at this point.

As for the Rolex vs Panerai "discussions," I can't comment since I don't own a PAM...yet. Plenty of experience with Rolex, though, vintage through the current models. Solid and reliable, as long as maintained (i.e., serviced). My 1965 5513 keeps COSC time (even though not certified from the factory that way) after a service, just like my newer Subs and SD.

If anyone has a PAM 177 they want to move...

[matt.wu]

Mmmm, yes

Fits in nicely for the sake of example, but that turd isn't worth anything to anybody. Same with the spider dials that folks like to reference - they do NOT increase value of vintage Rolex.

The only truly silly thing that actually does increase value right now is the "tropical" affect, but that's a fleeting trend.

I hear ya, I'm just kidding around, who cares what people are in to these days.
But... When someone is drooling over 372 and knocks on older Pam at the same time, which that very 372 is mimicking I don't know what to say.
Anyway my participation in this thread is over
Cheers.

[hoppyjr]

I heard that Seiko's use those cheap Asian made cases....