Thoughts on IPTV?

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:56 am

Axelay2003 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:45 am
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A VPN is basically a smoke screen to cover your tracks on the internet. If you need one then you aren't in the best place to be. :mrgreen:

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gwells
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by gwells » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:33 am

VPN is what i use on my phone while connected to my work network so i can access all the stupid shit they block by default.

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jeckyll
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by jeckyll » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm

Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone

We all have the same enemy. The enemy is the tyranny of the dull mind. - - Tom Robbins

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm

jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side

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jeckyll
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by jeckyll » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 pm

toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side
Nothing black about it.

I'm not talking about sitting around with a Kali distro having a look at what other people are doing in coffee shops, am I? Not that you couldn't do similar things with WinDump and libpcap plus a few other things on a Windows laptop :)

I'm just trying to get people to turn on VPN on public Wifi. That's like a public service announcement.

FWIW, I like protonvpn's free version on my phone & laptop, people should check it out. :fro:

Anyway, I'll step away from the soap box and put my tin-foil hat back on.

Actually, I think people should know more about DPI and what people can do once they have access to the trusted CA's, like on work systems. But unfortunately there is only so much most folks can or want to think about.
We all have the same enemy. The enemy is the tyranny of the dull mind. - - Tom Robbins

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matt.wu
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by matt.wu » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:11 pm

jeckyll wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side
Nothing black about it.

I'm not talking about sitting around with a Kali distro having a look at what other people are doing in coffee shops, am I? Not that you couldn't do similar things with WinDump and libpcap plus a few other things on a Windows laptop :)

I'm just trying to get people to turn on VPN on public Wifi. That's like a public service announcement.

FWIW, I like protonvpn's free version on my phone & laptop, people should check it out. :fro:

Anyway, I'll step away from the soap box and put my tin-foil hat back on.

Actually, I think people should know more about DPI and what people can do once they have access to the trusted CA's, like on work systems. But unfortunately there is only so much most folks can or want to think about.

I also use VPN on public WiFi :thumbsup:
:htfu:

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jeckyll
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by jeckyll » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:55 pm

matt.wu wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:11 pm
jeckyll wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side
Nothing black about it.

I'm not talking about sitting around with a Kali distro having a look at what other people are doing in coffee shops, am I? Not that you couldn't do similar things with WinDump and libpcap plus a few other things on a Windows laptop :)

I'm just trying to get people to turn on VPN on public Wifi. That's like a public service announcement.

FWIW, I like protonvpn's free version on my phone & laptop, people should check it out. :fro:

Anyway, I'll step away from the soap box and put my tin-foil hat back on.

Actually, I think people should know more about DPI and what people can do once they have access to the trusted CA's, like on work systems. But unfortunately there is only so much most folks can or want to think about.

I also use VPN on public WiFi :thumbsup:

Well done M@ ;)
We all have the same enemy. The enemy is the tyranny of the dull mind. - - Tom Robbins

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 am

jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side
I'm just trying to get people to turn on VPN on public Wifi. That's like a public service announcement.
WHen I worked comms that is what we called it, "black side". It is the side no one can see of your communications. It is encrypted when it leaves you, then goes on the black side of tunnel (path), it is de-encrypted when it gets to it destination. Same idea as a vpn. The only difference it I was using taclanes.

You might have thought I was talking about the dark side of the web. So my bad for not explaining that. :thumbsup:

Using a VPN on the open net is super important. Especially when it is not your network. But people don't understand how they are leaving themselves wide open.

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:45 am

matt.wu wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:11 pm
I also use VPN on public WiFi :thumbsup:
That's a must for sure. I have a friend who always blames his connection speed on his vpn, so he turns it off when working on open networks. :shrug: :banghead: I tried to explain it to him but he doesn't think anything will happen.

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Sidheguitarist
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by Sidheguitarist » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:53 am

How do you turn on vpn on an ipad for public wifi?

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:57 am

Sidheguitarist wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:53 am
How do you turn on vpn on an ipad for public wifi?
I dont' use an apple but read this

https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn ... ne-or-ipad

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JDC222
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by JDC222 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 am

Sidheguitarist wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:53 am
How do you turn on vpn on an ipad for public wifi?
Just download the app, I use FreeVPNUK and you can turn it off/on whenever you like. :thumbsup:
Whisky has killed more men than bullets, but most men would rather be full of whisky than bullets.
Winston Churchill.

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hoppyjr
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by hoppyjr » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:25 am

Yep, with iOS devices it’s super easy to toggle the VPN. I’ve got three different apps.


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fastward
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by fastward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am

VPN for all public networks is a must. My VPN automatically connects when I log onto an “untrusted” network.
iOS setup is easy.

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BBK357
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by BBK357 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:49 am

Ok so how do you use a vpn on the iPhone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DEATH FROM ABOVE
:ak:

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fastward
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by fastward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:48 pm

BBK357 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:49 am
Ok so how do you use a vpn on the iPhone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I use Encrypt.me. Download the app and set up VPN in settings.

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jeckyll
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by jeckyll » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:57 pm

toxicavenger wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 am
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side
I'm just trying to get people to turn on VPN on public Wifi. That's like a public service announcement.
WHen I worked comms that is what we called it, "black side". It is the side no one can see of your communications. It is encrypted when it leaves you, then goes on the black side of tunnel (path), it is de-encrypted when it gets to it destination. Same idea as a vpn. The only difference it I was using taclanes.

You might have thought I was talking about the dark side of the web. So my bad for not explaining that. :thumbsup:

Using a VPN on the open net is super important. Especially when it is not your network. But people don't understand how they are leaving themselves wide open.

OHHHhhhhh... yeah that wasn't clear to me :)

I'm used to the old Blackhat / whitehat distinction so I took that completely different :)
We all have the same enemy. The enemy is the tyranny of the dull mind. - - Tom Robbins

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:11 pm

jeckyll wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:57 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 am
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
matt.wu wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
toxicavenger wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm
Axelay2003 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:51 pm
I didn’t know this IPTV thing is illegal. Interesting. It’s too good to be legal I guess.
it is. there has been quite a few business that have tried this in the past and they all got shut down.
Wow, that’s good to know. He posted it on his FB page. I’m gonna message him.
He mentioned VPN. He knows it's illegal.
I’m not tech savvy. I didn’t even know what VPN entails. Learning everyday.
A vpn gives your traffic a different location where you enter 'the internet' . This means both that you are harder to trace and that your traffic is encrypted between you and the point you connected to.

I almost always use a vpn in any free wifi, both in my phone and my laptop.

It can also help you bypass content filtering on networks. Some places block certain vpn protocols, but even that can be bypasses with the right clients Image

Now you know... And know is half the battle Image



Blah blah smrt phone
we call it the black side
I'm just trying to get people to turn on VPN on public Wifi. That's like a public service announcement.
WHen I worked comms that is what we called it, "black side". It is the side no one can see of your communications. It is encrypted when it leaves you, then goes on the black side of tunnel (path), it is de-encrypted when it gets to it destination. Same idea as a vpn. The only difference it I was using taclanes.

You might have thought I was talking about the dark side of the web. So my bad for not explaining that. :thumbsup:

Using a VPN on the open net is super important. Especially when it is not your network. But people don't understand how they are leaving themselves wide open.

OHHHhhhhh... yeah that wasn't clear to me :)

I'm used to the old Blackhat / whitehat distinction so I took that completely different :)
Yeah that is a whole different arena for sure. When you said Kali I knew what you were referring too. :thumbsup:

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bedlam
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by bedlam » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm

toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:56 am
A VPN is basically a smoke screen to cover your tracks on the internet. If you need one then you aren't in the best place to be. :mrgreen:
That's like saying I must be doing something wrong if I close my curtains at night. Wanting privacy isn't wrong or suspicious.

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 pm

bedlam wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:56 am
A VPN is basically a smoke screen to cover your tracks on the internet. If you need one then you aren't in the best place to be. :mrgreen:
That's like saying I must be doing something wrong if I close my curtains at night. Wanting privacy isn't wrong or suspicious.
True. But when you are having to use to download/borrow someone else property then it is fraudulent.

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bedlam
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by bedlam » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:45 pm

toxicavenger wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 pm
bedlam wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:56 am
A VPN is basically a smoke screen to cover your tracks on the internet. If you need one then you aren't in the best place to be. :mrgreen:
That's like saying I must be doing something wrong if I close my curtains at night. Wanting privacy isn't wrong or suspicious.
True. But when you are having to use to download/borrow someone else property then it is fraudulent.
Not necessarily. In Oz its illegal to share copyright content, its not illegal to download it.

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toxicavenger
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by toxicavenger » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:48 pm

bedlam wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:45 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 pm
bedlam wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:56 am
A VPN is basically a smoke screen to cover your tracks on the internet. If you need one then you aren't in the best place to be. :mrgreen:
That's like saying I must be doing something wrong if I close my curtains at night. Wanting privacy isn't wrong or suspicious.
True. But when you are having to use to download/borrow someone else property then it is fraudulent.
Not necessarily. In Oz its illegal to share copyright content, its not illegal to download it.
Definitely not the case here. I can vouch for that. :crybaby:

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jeckyll
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by jeckyll » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:14 pm

No one should suggest that using a VPN is in any way doing something wrong.

It's also not nearly enough if you truly want to hide your activities. Check into browser and system fingerprinting if you want to get a bit uncomfortable about how much tracking is going on. And I'm not talking about the big bad government, I'm talking about sites that use persistent cookies, and try to track what you do and where you do it and then market that data.

Certainly it can be used to help obscure where you're coming from, but in a way it's no different than connecting through your ISP, with the exception that good VPN providers will be unlikely to provide the government logs, as they won't keep any (another good reason to use a VPN provide not incorporated in the US or with any offices or servers there).

It's becoming a more complex world all the time and people need to become a bit more educated.

For instance, weed became legal in Canada, I can order it through the mail. If I do, and use a credit card and that data is stored in the US, what potential problems can that cause? Not clear yet, but I wouldn't doubt for one minute that somewhere there's a scraper looking for exactly that type of data.

So, encrypting wherever you can is a smart first step. Chat / text / data start using non-US based companies wherever possible (Signal, ProtonMail, etc).
We all have the same enemy. The enemy is the tyranny of the dull mind. - - Tom Robbins

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bedlam
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by bedlam » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:07 pm

jeckyll wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:14 pm
No one should suggest that using a VPN is in any way doing something wrong.

It's also not nearly enough if you truly want to hide your activities. Check into browser and system fingerprinting if you want to get a bit uncomfortable about how much tracking is going on. And I'm not talking about the big bad government, I'm talking about sites that use persistent cookies, and try to track what you do and where you do it and then market that data.

Certainly it can be used to help obscure where you're coming from, but in a way it's no different than connecting through your ISP, with the exception that good VPN providers will be unlikely to provide the government logs, as they won't keep any (another good reason to use a VPN provide not incorporated in the US or with any offices or servers there).

It's becoming a more complex world all the time and people need to become a bit more educated.

For instance, weed became legal in Canada, I can order it through the mail. If I do, and use a credit card and that data is stored in the US, what potential problems can that cause? Not clear yet, but I wouldn't doubt for one minute that somewhere there's a scraper looking for exactly that type of data.

So, encrypting wherever you can is a smart first step. Chat / text / data start using non-US based companies wherever possible (Signal, ProtonMail, etc).
Agreed.

Certainly, you don't know when you might come under scrutiny from others. Having control over the information about you that is in the public domain or accessible to others is basic online self-defense.

Signal, RedPhone, Protonmail are all good privacy minded apps. WhatsApp was too but things have changed with Facebook buying it.

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jeckyll
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Re: Thoughts on IPTV?

Post by jeckyll » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:27 am

bedlam wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:07 pm
jeckyll wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:14 pm
<snip>
Agreed.

Certainly, you don't know when you might come under scrutiny from others. Having control over the information about you that is in the public domain or accessible to others is basic online self-defense.

Signal, RedPhone, Protonmail are all good privacy minded apps. WhatsApp was too but things have changed with Facebook buying it.
I'm sure you have similar regional issues in Australia with content as I do in Canada.

For instance, I like checking out NPR's First Listen for new music, but some albums I can't preview because I'm not in the US. This is exactly one of those areas where having VPN capabilities is really helpful. And, hurts no one, since all I do with it is figure out what new albums to look for on Spotify a few weeks later :)

"This content is not available in your region" is annoying!

If I was in the UK I'd probably want to VPN out all the time, their new regulations about data retention by ISPs are scary from a "surveillance state" perspective.
We all have the same enemy. The enemy is the tyranny of the dull mind. - - Tom Robbins

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