Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

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Ryeguy
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Ryeguy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:31 am

I’ve found that 80/20 ratio of front brake to rear to be optimal. It just makes sense as, the harder you brake, your inertia puts more pressure on the front tire so it grabs more effective. The rear tire unweights under severe braking causing a skid.

This is why most “sport” bikes have larger, dual, discs in front and a single smaller disc in the rear. Heck, I’ve heard of dedicated track bikes with rear brakes intentionally set up to be mushy so you could stomp on them and they wouldn’t lock up.

That said, all my bike experiences have been with “sport” oriented bikes. Full dresser style touring bikes might have enough weight over the rear tire to make that brake effective.

I also agree you need to practice proper techniques as what you practice is what you’ll do in an emergency. The better you anticipate the stupidity of other drivers, the less likely a panic stop will be necessary.

Joe’s bike has a long swing arm, so that rear tire is way back. He’ll have to really clutch and hoist to get that front tire in the air (a skill you should learn, Joe, in case you ever find yourself with an under inflated front tire :lol: ). I can easy see that rear tire locking up (assuming no ABS) if Joe over emphasizes the rear brake. Find a parking lot and practice is probably the best of all advice.

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Ryeguy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:45 am

As for the “bigger is better” discussion, it is almost like the “2 foot-itess” disease that afflicts boaters. Everyone wants a boat that is about 2 feet longer than what they’ve got.

Years ago I went from a Kawasaki ZX6R to a Truimph Daytona 995i (600cc sport bike to 1000cc sport bike). I found the 6R to be much more fun a ride around town. It made you shift and think about your power band. The Daytona might as well have been an automatic transmission. 0-60 was first gear. 60- about 100mph was second. It was a blast on open remote roads where you could really let it rip, but it was both heavier and hotter around town.

If I were on an island where chances for 140MPH runs are pretty limited, I think a light weight, smaller bike would be more fun. Horses for courses.

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:47 pm

That's hot joe.
Need more pics of the 401!!
I m keen on the new duke390 heh

First big track day since the crash
Did well considering all that has happened.


Just be aware that locking the rear can happen in an emergency situation if ur used to using both front back together.
Best case scenario ur engine dies n u stall uptight.
Worst case scenario ur high siding...
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Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Joeprez » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm

Really appreciate all the comments, definitely need read/watch videos and practice braking.

Will keep updating my learning and the bikes in this thread.

Had a great ride last Sunday and the bike was really great. Fun to discover old roads and riding through the smaller towns that unfortunately I seldom visit.

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Last edited by Joeprez on Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:11 am

Those are some kickass views

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Ryeguy » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:06 am

Yes, I think you picked the right bike for your little slice of paradise. Taking a quick glance at the stats you posted, it looks like your average speed was 20 MPH and you maxed out at only 56. Sounds to me like a lot of back roads and twisties. A liter bike probably wouldn't be a whole lot of fun in those. As a matter of fact, I think I could probably navigate that route more quickly on a light weight, "hooligan" style bike at maybe 600cc than I could with my 995i Daytona.

Now that you own your bike, and in the spirit of the "2 foot-itis" disease that nearly all boat owners suffer from, I would suggest you start saving for the Truimph Street Triple RS to terrorize your back roads.


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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by jeckyll » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:30 am

Joeprez wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Really appreciate all the comments, definitely need read/watch videos and practice braking.

Will keep updating my learning and the bikes in this thread.

Had a great ride last Sunday and the bike was really great. Fun to discover old roads and riding through the smaller towns that unfortunately I seldom visit.

ImageImageImageImage


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Joe, a great thing to check out is "Ienatsch Tuesday" on Cycle World
https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/

Tips every week :)
If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe.
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:44 am

jeckyll wrote:
Joeprez wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Really appreciate all the comments, definitely need read/watch videos and practice braking.

Will keep updating my learning and the bikes in this thread.

Had a great ride last Sunday and the bike was really great. Fun to discover old roads and riding through the smaller towns that unfortunately I seldom visit.

ImageImageImageImage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Joe, a great thing to check out is "Ienatsch Tuesday" on Cycle World
https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/

Tips every week :)
Gotta do the yamaha school someday.


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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by jeckyll » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:12 am

mikeylacroix wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:44 am
jeckyll wrote:<<snip>>

Joe, a great thing to check out is "Ienatsch Tuesday" on Cycle World
https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/

Tips every week :)
Gotta do the yamaha school someday.


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I know some folks that went and found it really valuable. :cheers:
If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe.
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Joeprez » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:55 pm

jeckyll wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:30 am
Joeprez wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Really appreciate all the comments, definitely need read/watch videos and practice braking.

Will keep updating my learning and the bikes in this thread.

Had a great ride last Sunday and the bike was really great. Fun to discover old roads and riding through the smaller towns that unfortunately I seldom visit.

ImageImageImageImage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Joe, a great thing to check out is "Ienatsch Tuesday" on Cycle World
https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/

Tips every week :)

Will certainly do, thanks!
mikeylacroix wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:11 am
Those are some kickass views

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Thanks!
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Joeprez » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:15 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:06 am
Yes, I think you picked the right bike for your little slice of paradise. Taking a quick glance at the stats you posted, it looks like your average speed was 20 MPH and you maxed out at only 56. Sounds to me like a lot of back roads and twisties. A liter bike probably wouldn't be a whole lot of fun in those. As a matter of fact, I think I could probably navigate that route more quickly on a light weight, "hooligan" style bike at maybe 600cc than I could with my 995i Daytona.

Now that you own your bike, and in the spirit of the "2 foot-itis" disease that nearly all boat owners suffer from, I would suggest you start saving for the Truimph Street Triple RS to terrorize your back roads.

I had a lot of fun, but to be honest you could run 80% of the route faster, I'm just not there yet (and I don't mind).

Most people I know that have sport bikes (that actually use them as intended) buy 600cc and 750cc bikes. Its enough for the roads here. You used to see a lot of Hayabusas when I was younger, but not anymore. You mostly see a lot of Honda CBR600, Yamaha YZF-R6 and Suzuki GSX in 600cc and 750cc engines.

And recently I've started seeing a lot of Super Motos, Dukes 390's, Scrambler bikes converted for road use, and naked bikes from Yamaha and BMW. Local KTM dealers have already received the Duke 200's so I'm sure I'll see a lot of those shortly.

And Harleys on Sunday (MD's, laywers, dentists) :grin:

The Street Triple is a seriously cool bike! From Triumph I'm also digging the Scrambler a lot.
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Erratic101 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:44 pm

Ryeguy wrote:I’ve found that 80/20 ratio of front brake to rear to be optimal. It just makes sense as, the harder you brake, your inertia puts more pressure on the front tire so it grabs more effective. The rear tire unweights under severe braking causing a skid.

This is why most “sport” bikes have larger, dual, discs in front and a single smaller disc in the rear. Heck, I’ve heard of dedicated track bikes with rear brakes intentionally set up to be mushy so you could stomp on them and they wouldn’t lock up.

That said, all my bike experiences have been with “sport” oriented bikes. Full dresser style touring bikes might have enough weight over the rear tire to make that brake effective.

I also agree you need to practice proper techniques as what you practice is what you’ll do in an emergency. The better you anticipate the stupidity of other drivers, the less likely a panic stop will be necessary.

Joe’s bike has a long swing arm, so that rear tire is way back. He’ll have to really clutch and hoist to get that front tire in the air (a skill you should learn, Joe, in case you ever find yourself with an under inflated front tire :lol: ). I can easy see that rear tire locking up (assuming no ABS) if Joe over emphasizes the rear brake. Find a parking lot and practice is probably the best of all advice.
I think front brake only is a horrible habit to learn. Become efficient at using both and you’ll learn how to stop fast and controlled. I use probably about 70/30 - 60/40 depending. I also always have the front brake covered with 2 fingers. Becoming proficient in rear braking will do amazing things for your riding. Trail braking comes in very handy. Also, find a parking lot and go lock up the rear. The more comfortable you are with that feeling the easier it becomes to control.

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Ryeguy » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:50 pm

Erratic101 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:44 pm
Ryeguy wrote:I’ve found that 80/20 ratio of front brake to rear to be optimal. It just makes sense as, the harder you brake, your inertia puts more pressure on the front tire so it grabs more effective. The rear tire unweights under severe braking causing a skid.

This is why most “sport” bikes have larger, dual, discs in front and a single smaller disc in the rear. Heck, I’ve heard of dedicated track bikes with rear brakes intentionally set up to be mushy so you could stomp on them and they wouldn’t lock up.

That said, all my bike experiences have been with “sport” oriented bikes. Full dresser style touring bikes might have enough weight over the rear tire to make that brake effective.

I also agree you need to practice proper techniques as what you practice is what you’ll do in an emergency. The better you anticipate the stupidity of other drivers, the less likely a panic stop will be necessary.

Joe’s bike has a long swing arm, so that rear tire is way back. He’ll have to really clutch and hoist to get that front tire in the air (a skill you should learn, Joe, in case you ever find yourself with an under inflated front tire :lol: ). I can easy see that rear tire locking up (assuming no ABS) if Joe over emphasizes the rear brake. Find a parking lot and practice is probably the best of all advice.
I think front brake only is a horrible habit to learn. Become efficient at using both and you’ll learn how to stop fast and controlled. I use probably about 70/30 - 60/40 depending. I also always have the front brake covered with 2 fingers. Becoming proficient in rear braking will do amazing things for your riding. Trail braking comes in very handy. Also, find a parking lot and go lock up the rear. The more comfortable you are with that feeling the easier it becomes to control.
I see you quoted me but I don’t think there is an argument here. I said 80/20, you said 70/30. Bottom line is the majority of your braking effectiveness comes from the front calipers.

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:17 pm

jeckyll wrote:
mikeylacroix wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:44 am
jeckyll wrote:<<snip>>

Joe, a great thing to check out is "Ienatsch Tuesday" on Cycle World
https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/

Tips every week :)
Gotta do the yamaha school someday.


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I know some folks that went and found it really valuable. :cheers:
Have they done the CSS?
How would they compare css vs ycrs?

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Erratic101 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:34 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Erratic101 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:44 pm
Ryeguy wrote:I’ve found that 80/20 ratio of front brake to rear to be optimal. It just makes sense as, the harder you brake, your inertia puts more pressure on the front tire so it grabs more effective. The rear tire unweights under severe braking causing a skid.

This is why most “sport” bikes have larger, dual, discs in front and a single smaller disc in the rear. Heck, I’ve heard of dedicated track bikes with rear brakes intentionally set up to be mushy so you could stomp on them and they wouldn’t lock up.

That said, all my bike experiences have been with “sport” oriented bikes. Full dresser style touring bikes might have enough weight over the rear tire to make that brake effective.

I also agree you need to practice proper techniques as what you practice is what you’ll do in an emergency. The better you anticipate the stupidity of other drivers, the less likely a panic stop will be necessary.

Joe’s bike has a long swing arm, so that rear tire is way back. He’ll have to really clutch and hoist to get that front tire in the air (a skill you should learn, Joe, in case you ever find yourself with an under inflated front tire :lol: ). I can easy see that rear tire locking up (assuming no ABS) if Joe over emphasizes the rear brake. Find a parking lot and practice is probably the best of all advice.
I think front brake only is a horrible habit to learn. Become efficient at using both and you’ll learn how to stop fast and controlled. I use probably about 70/30 - 60/40 depending. I also always have the front brake covered with 2 fingers. Becoming proficient in rear braking will do amazing things for your riding. Trail braking comes in very handy. Also, find a parking lot and go lock up the rear. The more comfortable you are with that feeling the easier it becomes to control.
I see you quoted me but I don’t think there is an argument here. I said 80/20, you said 70/30. Bottom line is the majority of your braking effectiveness comes from the front calipers.
Ya no argument. Guess it was more directed towards marjak and Carlos

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Joeprez » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:52 pm

New bar end mirrors as the I could only see my shoulders with the ones that came with the bike.

Also removed the neon green stripe (makes the bike look shorter in my opinion) and started removing the factory stickers (PITA).

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:41 am

That looks a lot better.

Check out 'double take side mirrors'

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Marjak » Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:35 pm

Erratic101 wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:34 am
Ryeguy wrote:
Erratic101 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:44 pm
Ryeguy wrote:I’ve found that 80/20 ratio of front brake to rear to be optimal. It just makes sense as, the harder you brake, your inertia puts more pressure on the front tire so it grabs more effective. The rear tire unweights under severe braking causing a skid.

This is why most “sport” bikes have larger, dual, discs in front and a single smaller disc in the rear. Heck, I’ve heard of dedicated track bikes with rear brakes intentionally set up to be mushy so you could stomp on them and they wouldn’t lock up.

That said, all my bike experiences have been with “sport” oriented bikes. Full dresser style touring bikes might have enough weight over the rear tire to make that brake effective.

I also agree you need to practice proper techniques as what you practice is what you’ll do in an emergency. The better you anticipate the stupidity of other drivers, the less likely a panic stop will be necessary.

Joe’s bike has a long swing arm, so that rear tire is way back. He’ll have to really clutch and hoist to get that front tire in the air (a skill you should learn, Joe, in case you ever find yourself with an under inflated front tire :lol: ). I can easy see that rear tire locking up (assuming no ABS) if Joe over emphasizes the rear brake. Find a parking lot and practice is probably the best of all advice.
I think front brake only is a horrible habit to learn. Become efficient at using both and you’ll learn how to stop fast and controlled. I use probably about 70/30 - 60/40 depending. I also always have the front brake covered with 2 fingers. Becoming proficient in rear braking will do amazing things for your riding. Trail braking comes in very handy. Also, find a parking lot and go lock up the rear. The more comfortable you are with that feeling the easier it becomes to control.
I see you quoted me but I don’t think there is an argument here. I said 80/20, you said 70/30. Bottom line is the majority of your braking effectiveness comes from the front calipers.
Ya no argument. Guess it was more directed towards marjak and Carlos
The 401's design is based on the Duke 390 and is a short wheel-based bike with the front wheel almost directly under the steer. When emergency breaking, the rear brake will become almost useless as the weight shifts to the front of the bike very quickly. Yes, for the 0.5 seconds when starting breaking it is useful as it helps shift the weight faster to the front. But for the not so experienced riders in an emergency they tend to step hard on the rear brake which is obviously dangerous as you will loose control. In my advice to Joe, I should have been more specific about breaking in an emergency only. I am aware that this technique won't apply for long wheel-based bikes like cruisers where you probably want to apply the rear brake during the whole breaking maneuver. With normal breaking situations, non-emergency, I agree the rear brake should be applied in a maybe front-rear 80-20 ratio. As I myself almost never exceed speeds over 45mph (2-wheeled vehicles are not allowed on highways in Indonesia) for me the use of the front brake only works well in emergencies, which I unfortunately need to do at least a few times a day with all those little scooters crowding the roads. Regardless, my advice to Joe was not my best advice ever given to somebody....
- Mart -

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:41 am

What years urs mart?
Alex n I thinking of the 2020 version when it pops up on the secondary market

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Marjak » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:56 am

mikeylacroix wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:41 am
What years urs mart?
Alex n I thinking of the 2020 version when it pops up on the secondary market

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2018. I have read the 2020 has a bit less power.... check it out Mike :cheers:
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by Joeprez » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:40 am

From what I've seen the 80/20 rule is mentioned a lot. I've been using the rear to slow down before corners (remember, I'm not carrying a lot of speed before entering anyways), and both for brakes for "real" braking (emergency stop of full stop at a light). Interesting that it's similar to how I brake in the mountain bike (during hard braking on the mtb, I position myself behind the saddle to avoid going over the bike... is this something that is also done in a motorcycle?)
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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by jeckyll » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:50 am

mikeylacroix wrote:
jeckyll wrote:
mikeylacroix wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:44 am
jeckyll wrote:<<snip>>

Joe, a great thing to check out is "Ienatsch Tuesday" on Cycle World
https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/

Tips every week :)
Gotta do the yamaha school someday.


Sent from my vivo 1920 using Tapatalk
I know some folks that went and found it really valuable. :cheers:
Have they done the CSS?
How would they compare css vs ycrs?

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Thus was some years ago and I no longer work with them, so unfortunately I don't have an answer for you
If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe.
--Lord Salisbury

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by jeckyll » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 am

Joeprez wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:40 am
From what I've seen the 80/20 rule is mentioned a lot. I've been using the rear to slow down before corners (remember, I'm not carrying a lot of speed before entering anyways), and both for brakes for "real" braking (emergency stop of full stop at a light). Interesting that it's similar to how I brake in the mountain bike (during hard braking on the mtb, I position myself behind the saddle to avoid going over the bike... is this something that is also done in a motorcycle?)
Joe: It might be good for you to check out some of the links on braking in Nick Ienatsch's column. Braking is _the_ biggest thing to get right early in order to progress and he's got a number of things to practice.

Application and effectiveness will vary greatly from bike to bike (I have some where using the rear is essential to safe riding, and some where it's truly optional and I often just use the rear while at a stop to keep the bike from rolling). And I've had some bikes where the use of the rear brake at the very beginning of hard braking helped settle the suspension, though that's honestly more of an advanced technique for bikes set up a bit soft.

Bike looks sharp!

Ride often, ride safe :cheers:
If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe.
--Lord Salisbury

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Re: Because DWC members know their shit: Motorcycle questions - what to get for my first real bike

Post by mikeylacroix » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:58 pm

Joeprez wrote:From what I've seen the 80/20 rule is mentioned a lot. I've been using the rear to slow down before corners (remember, I'm not carrying a lot of speed before entering anyways), and both for brakes for "real" braking (emergency stop of full stop at a light). Interesting that it's similar to how I brake in the mountain bike (during hard braking on the mtb, I position myself behind the saddle to avoid going over the bike... is this something that is also done in a motorcycle?)
Only if u jab it (for whatever reason.. don't basically) or ur hard braking into a turn while carrying high speeds
Otherwise u don't wanna take away that traction from ur front as it navigates the corner and lines up ur exit

Ur bike is honestly short enough to not need the rear too much going into most corners

Play Around with the rear in a carpark doing figure 8 drills & other slow speed drills that wld give u the most familiarity with it.
Motojitsu has some good drills on utube

Vision
Steering
Throttle

Brake smooth
Brake until u r happy with ur speed and trajectory

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