Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

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River Rat
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 am

Why do when a watch company do a great remake of one of there watches that was made for military service some here buy them up. Then nock the real McCoy. Don't tell me one of the watches below you would not mind to wear.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by JBZ » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:25 am

I don't think anyone is knocking them as watches. A lot of military and "military-style" watches look very good to my eye.

I think people are questioning the price some of the vintage military watches are commanding. Should a watch be worth more just because it was military issued? No matter where you come down on that issue, there's no doubt that Rolexes and Tudors with military provenance command a higher price on the second hand market.

There's also no doubt that, because of those prices, several unscrupulous sellers are willing to fudge/fake/lie about provenance in order to increase the value of the watches they're selling. Or fake the watches themselves.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by watchdawg » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:03 am

toxicavenger wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:26 pm
namor wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am
Its a hard thing to explain sometimes, but there is that perception about a mil issued item having a price premium attached to it. I know that I couldn't wait to get rid of the watch I was issued and replace it with a PX bought Seiko diver which I thought was vastly superior. Until a SF soldier I was diving with in PI showed me his Seiko 6159-7001 titanium Tuna and ruined me for life.

Just about anything I was issued was looked at as "lowest cost provider" to me, except for the pair of jet fins I liberated from Coronado.
Tacti-cool guys like anything with an NSN number. They don't understand that was the cheapest shit the government could get us. Not the best shit!
The contract went to the lowest bidder and you get what you pay for.

Over on TRF people got indignant about an Vietnam era Australian SAS guy having his service number on his GMT. The pious butt holes couldn’t understand why anyone would do that, they don't understand that if it was used by a service member it probably got as beaten up as the wearer.. Only a few knew why and we didn’t say, it was to help identify his body if he was KIA.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:11 am

When I bought all these I got them when the time was right. Before the jump in price. A lot of members got a few when they were cheap and cheaper than the remakes but flipped them I am not a flipper think I paid 1800 for that Heuer Bund cheaper than that nice Sinn that just came out. I buy less these days due to the price hike but once in a while I find a deal. Some times I think of doing a fire sale but then I would not be able to replace them. I bet some members wish they kept them instead of flipping them before the price hike. Use to tell the forum to get into military watch collecting when prices were right no one listened to me. They mite of made bank instead of buying new stuff there old they need service and all kinds of excuses. Most have double in price.
Last edited by River Rat on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by gr8sw » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:18 am

River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 am
Why do when a watch company do a great remake of one of there watches that was made for military service some here buy them up. Then nock the real McCoy. Don't tell me one of the watches below you would not mind to wear.
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can I be your son? :pray: :lol:
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:27 am

Think I added 4 more after that group shot and they were deals some with funky lume or under the radar or one deal from a Czech watch dealer that did not speak English used a translator web thing to get the deal done. Deals are harder to find these days.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:10 am

And some collect for the history of were these watches were. I was watching the antique road show the other day. Some one brought in a US 48 star flag beat to hell. It was off a LST that was in the Okinawa invasion and went through that typhoon Bull Halsey made a mistake were the fleet went through and sunk a few ships and damaged a lot of them blowing off pieces of flight decks from a carrier. The damage from that flag flying during that typhoon made it worth some serious money. My Dad went through that typhoon. We collect this stuff due to your and other countries past. And the rarer they are it’s all about cost and demand. Same with some issued watches.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by toxicavenger » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:14 am

River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:10 am
And some collect for the history of were these watches were. I was watching the antique road show the other day. Some one brought in a US 48 star flag beat to hell. It was off a LST that was in the Okinawa invasion and went through that typhoon Bull Halsey made a mistake were the fleet when through sunk a few ships and damaged a lot of them blowing off pieces of flight decks from a carrier. The damage from that flag flying during that typhoon made it worth some serious money. My Dad went through that typhoon. We collect this stuff due to your and other countries past. And the rarer they are it’s all about cost and demand. Same with some issued watches.
Mike I do not think you are getting it. The point is some of us think paying astronomical prices for military provenance crazy. Some of us who believe this are also people who served. If you are good with then cool. :salute:

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:44 am

Most vintage watches like Heuer, Omega, Zenith have shot up the same as vintage military watches if they got the cool factor and there wanted like some vintage issued chronographs and divers that have the cool factor. It’s the vintage factor in most cases why some military watches are worth a lot. Cost and demand look at how many civilian Omega 300 were made and then how many British issue Omega 300 were made. There less issued 300 so if a collector who collects vintage Omega wants a issued 300 to complete his collection there only so many out there since there less of them. So the pay out the nose like any rare antique cost and demand. Why I got a vintage Omega 300 instead still has the cool look just with out the T on the dial and worth double than I paid went up as much as some of my issued watches. Most don’t get vintage here and don’t collect vintage. But you got to count the vintage factor. Look at vintage cars I paid 500 for a Chevy 1965 impala super sport in high school now look what you have to pay for one. Only so many vintage watches out there like vintage cars. Who here paid a arm and a leg for a vintage car I use to get for 500 bucks it was considered a beater wished I had that beater today another mans junk is another mans treasure . Same with vintage civilian and issued watches. Hope that makes since it’s like that commercial a caveman can do it.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by logan2z » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:08 am

River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:44 am
Most don’t get vintage here and don’t collect vintage.
<tangent mode on>

I can't speak for others here, but I love vintage watches and think most new watches don't come close in terms of design. But many tend to be tiny by modern standards (although that standard seems to be slowly changing) and service/parts availability can be a real problem. It can certainly require a sizable investment in time/effort to own vintage watches and, understandably, many people don't want the hassle. But if parts were easily obtainable and it was easy to find a watchmaker capable of servicing them, I think many here (myself included) would gladly own vintage timepieces.

<tangent mode off>

OK, back to the discussion of issued watches and why they may/may not be worth the extra $$$...

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by unsub073 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:21 am

logan2z wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:08 am
River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:44 am
Most don’t get vintage here and don’t collect vintage.
<tangent mode on>

I can't speak for others here, but I love vintage watches and think most new watches don't come close in terms of design. But many tend to be tiny by modern standards (although that standard seems to be slowly changing) and service/parts availability can be a real problem. It can certainly require a sizable investment in time/effort to own vintage watches and, understandably, many people don't want the hassle. But if parts were easily obtainable and it was easy to find a watchmaker capable of servicing them, I think many here (myself included) would gladly own vintage timepieces.

<tangent mode off>

OK, back to the discussion of issued watches and why they may/may not be worth the extra $$$...
I am going through the mental gymnastics of that right now, and I am finding that certain watches are a serious pain in the ass to try to find the parts for, so I have been checking those brands off the list of something I don't want to deal with. In the end, I may give up on finding a older piece b/c of that hassle.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by namor » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:29 am

watchdawg wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:03 am
toxicavenger wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:26 pm
namor wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am
Its a hard thing to explain sometimes, but there is that perception about a mil issued item having a price premium attached to it. I know that I couldn't wait to get rid of the watch I was issued and replace it with a PX bought Seiko diver which I thought was vastly superior. Until a SF soldier I was diving with in PI showed me his Seiko 6159-7001 titanium Tuna and ruined me for life.

Just about anything I was issued was looked at as "lowest cost provider" to me, except for the pair of jet fins I liberated from Coronado.
Tacti-cool guys like anything with an NSN number. They don't understand that was the cheapest shit the government could get us. Not the best shit!
The contract went to the lowest bidder and you get what you pay for.

Over on TRF people got indignant about an Vietnam era Australian SAS guy having his service number on his GMT. The pious butt holes couldn’t understand why anyone would do that, they don't understand that if it was used by a service member it probably got as beaten up as the wearer.. Only a few knew why and we didn’t say, it was to help identify his body if he was KIA.
I was in before the quartz revolution, so the choices open to a grunt who wanted a watch that could stand up to the things he had to do was somewhat limited. I spent a month's pay as a Lance Corporal to buy a Sea Dweller overseas, and had the shop engrave my name and serial number on the caseback. That was pretty common in those days.

I definitely 'get' why these watches can be desirable - they tend to be rugged, with useful features like a timing bezel, or chrono capability. But I passed on buying a friend's S13 IDF Eterna (which was his issued piece from his days in that unit) because I didn't 'earn' it; he had. Probably a stupid fiscal move on my part but nobody ever accused grunts of being the brightest bunch!

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by JP Chestnut » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:32 am

River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:11 am
When I bought all these I got them when the time was right. Before the jump in price. A lot of members got a few when they were cheap and cheaper than the remakes but flipped them I am not a flipper think I paid 1800 for that Heuer Bund cheaper than that nice Sinn that just came out. I buy less these days due to the price hike but once in a while I find a deal. Some times I think of doing a fire sale but then I would not be able to replace them. I bet some members wish they kept them instead of flipping them before the price hike. Use to tell the forum to get into military watch collecting when prices were right no one listened to me. They mite of made bank instead of buying new stuff there old they need service and all kinds of excuses. Most have double in price.
You also had a hand fall off and some dude tried to glue it back on. Not everyone wants to deal with that. Im not sure why it’s so surprising that different people like different things.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:08 pm

Some one said it's a problem to find a watchmaker who good at working vintage and then getting parts. You ask on the forum for help. Andrew told me were to send my Hanhart 417 issued Bund for service. This watchmaker deal mainly with vintage Heuer's vintage chronographs. The minute counter gear needed replaced since he deals mainly in vintage and had contacts for parts he was able to find it I did get charged a fee to find it but worth it. Still works perfectly. You don't send it to a watchmaker that works mainly on new watches and has no clue on vintage there out there. I use a few different watch makers. I had a Glycine Airman were the hacking did not work there is a hacking wire that comes out a small hole at the twelve and hack the second hand. That wire small as a human hair most watchers service these screw up the hacking wire and give it back none hacking. There was a watchmaker who specializes in these he got some one to remanufacture the lever and wire and a few other parts like the locking crown that missing some times. Well he service it and now it hacks again. It's about the right watchmaker for the right job. Then some one said vintage watches there two small ever notice European Issued watches the divers and there issued Pilot watches are larger than most vintage another reason we collect them. I was wearing a Egin A-11 from WW2 there small my friends sister said is that a ladies watch another reason I started buying European issued watches and there cooler.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:16 pm

JP Chestnut wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:32 am
River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:11 am
When I bought all these I got them when the time was right. Before the jump in price. A lot of members got a few when they were cheap and cheaper than the remakes but flipped them I am not a flipper think I paid 1800 for that Heuer Bund cheaper than that nice Sinn that just came out. I buy less these days due to the price hike but once in a while I find a deal. Some times I think of doing a fire sale but then I would not be able to replace them. I bet some members wish they kept them instead of flipping them before the price hike. Use to tell the forum to get into military watch collecting when prices were right no one listened to me. They mite of made bank instead of buying new stuff there old they need service and all kinds of excuses. Most have double in price.
You also had a hand fall off and some dude tried to glue it back on. Not everyone wants to deal with that. Im not sure why it’s so surprising that different people like different things.
That was a Sinn authorized repair service here in the USA were most of you send your Sinn's RGM. I sent it to another watchmaker who specializes in vintage and got it done right still resets at the twelve with out glue. RGM should of gave me a little refund since they could not handle the job you expect more when you pay for full service don't send vintage stuff to RGM glue on a sweep hand. And I had to pay another watchmaker with experience on vintage to finish there job.
Image
The right watchmaker look the sweep hands perfect now. I have used this watchmaker a couple other times on a Zenith and my Junghans issued Bund chronograph with out a problem. Think he replaced the pinion in the center of the sweep hand looks new and tightened it so it would not move. There no replacement hands in this style any more.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:10 pm

Vintage watches are kind of like vintage cars were prices have shot up was the only way to explain it. Like when I was a teenager vintage cars were cheap. Had a friend trade a ugly Rambler station wagon the ugliest thing on four wheels for a 1966 Ford Mustang. The mustang did need a hood and front right corner panel we had to bend the fire wall back a little we got a hood for 75 bucks forgot what the corner panel cost at a wrecking yard that only had mustang parts think it was in San Jose. Wonder what a vintage mustang hood cost today ? Then he sold it for a few more bucks. Vintage watches and Vintage cars are about the same today if you understand one you should understand the other. They were both cheap at one time.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by gonzomantis » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:28 pm

River Rat wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 am
Why do when a watch company do a great remake of one of there watches that was made for military service some here buy them up. Then nock the real McCoy. Don't tell me one of the watches below you would not mind to wear.
I love them all. I'll even trade you my Eterna reissue for your vintage one, to prove that I like vintage. ;)

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by uncleluck » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:48 am

Not Tudor related but I’d say to anyone don’t believe what the seller is telling you, do your own research, ask other experts.

I’ve first hand witnessed some watch selling BS this week, I sold a watch last week & it appeared back on eBay with a story of how the seller bought it from his mate who bought the watch brand new in another country, it sat in a drawer unused for years and knows all the provenance! Silly thing is I recognised it as my watch instantly and he even put the serial no in the listing and pics with the whole BS story in the advert!

Someone will buy it and have that BS story to go on forever more. This is why I always say forget the stuff about “all original” and just buy on genuine parts and condition.

A lot of watches on IG lately claiming to be mint or nearly NOS and have had heavy case refinishing done (that sticks out like a sore thumb if you know what you’re looking at) and no doubt NOS parts etc and you get people commenting how amazing they are.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:09 pm

When you buy one like this
Image
Image
When there only made for the military and none sold to the public except when sold as surplus you know there is no bull shit on what it is. Now private buys civilian watches were there mite be a story it was used by some one in the military those are the ones to stay away from were BS mite be involved. These Omega 53's have one of the better issue marks they just stand out.

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