Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

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Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by Mr_Pacman » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:18 am

https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthr ... -on-fakes)

I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention on various forums. Sounds like a lot of the MN Tudor Subs with papers are now in question.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by JBZ » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:40 am

Vintage Rolex and Tudor is such a minefield with prices being what they are. Now add military provenance and it's pretty easy to see why these are attracting scammers. Even without the out and out fraud, it's even hard for so-called "experts" to determine what's original, what's replacement, and what's aftermarket.

I wouldn't buy one of these unless I was financially comfortable with the fact that I could ultimately end up with something worth a lot less or even worth nothing.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by toxicavenger » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:48 am

JBZ wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:40 am
Vintage Rolex and Tudor is such a minefield with prices being what they are. Now add military provenance and it's pretty easy to see why these are attracting scammers. Even without the out and out fraud, it's even hard for so-called "experts" to determine what's original, what's replacement, and what's aftermarket.

I wouldn't buy one of these unless I was financially comfortable with the fact that I could ultimately end up with something worth a lot less or even worth nothing.
the only verification is "he said, she said" kind of crap. what a shitty way to try and verify something. people should make their own provenance then they would know the truth.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by JBZ » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:59 am

toxicavenger wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:48 am
JBZ wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:40 am
Vintage Rolex and Tudor is such a minefield with prices being what they are. Now add military provenance and it's pretty easy to see why these are attracting scammers. Even without the out and out fraud, it's even hard for so-called "experts" to determine what's original, what's replacement, and what's aftermarket.

I wouldn't buy one of these unless I was financially comfortable with the fact that I could ultimately end up with something worth a lot less or even worth nothing.
the only verification is "he said, she said" kind of crap. what a shitty way to try and verify something. people should make their own provenance then they would know the truth.
True. And never having been in the military, I would personally be uncomfortable wearing a watch that had been worn by someone who was in a combat theater (even if I could afford one of these). Makes sense for a veteran, but doesn't seem right for me.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by toxicavenger » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:54 am

JBZ wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:59 am
toxicavenger wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:48 am
JBZ wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:40 am
Vintage Rolex and Tudor is such a minefield with prices being what they are. Now add military provenance and it's pretty easy to see why these are attracting scammers. Even without the out and out fraud, it's even hard for so-called "experts" to determine what's original, what's replacement, and what's aftermarket.

I wouldn't buy one of these unless I was financially comfortable with the fact that I could ultimately end up with something worth a lot less or even worth nothing.
the only verification is "he said, she said" kind of crap. what a shitty way to try and verify something. people should make their own provenance then they would know the truth.
True. And never having been in the military, I would personally be uncomfortable wearing a watch that had been worn by someone who was in a combat theater (even if I could afford one of these). Makes sense for a veteran, but doesn't seem right for me.
Unless it was a family members watch I am not so sure I could wear one as bragging rights.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by JP Chestnut » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:31 am

The honest watches are all long gone and when they're getting traded it happens behind the scenes. There is SO MUCH money in the vintage Rolex game, that dudes aren't selling legit no stories watches through these dealers, and the dealers aren't hunting down new good watches in 2019.

If you were paying attention, you could see the popularity increase and the resultant sucking up of the last batch of "newly discovered" watches a few years ago. Then there was an availability slump, a huge increase in prices, and a rush to market of junk or built up frankens. The longtime guys are just sitting on what they have or trading among themselves. Nobody is doing a real deep dive to authenticate because nobody wants to be the one holding a $200,000 fake.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by hoppyjr » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:18 am

I tried to read the thread but it makes my head hurt. Way too much risk and drama for me. I wouldn’t want a watch like that anyway, as I’d never enjoy wearing something that I had to worry about.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by deepcdvr » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:14 pm

Wow

With respect to military provenance, I think it’s a load of junk.

I place no more - or less - value on a watch just because some poor military dude slung it around for a few years. I understand additional value for pieces worn by famous warriors, but that’s it. Lots of BS floating around out there...
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by sierra11b » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:45 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:14 pm
I place no more - or less - value on a watch just because some poor military dude slung it around for a few years. I understand additional value for pieces worn by famous warriors, but that’s it. Lots of BS floating around out there...
I don't really understand it for various famous warriors (to an extent) and this is coming from a guy who sold a well combat worn 16570 for an 18D dude everyone knew for $3500 years ago. Sold it as such because of condition and neither of us considered adding such drivel although maybe we should have? :think: President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s Rolex, a cockpit instrument clock from a very famous bombing run (either bomb size or lack of surviving planes), or the wrist watch of a famous ace or civilian pilot, then sure.

If a watch came directly from the owner or relative then what would interest me would be provenance in the form of a theater-worn picture and a complete set, but I can only see the real value in the set and not necessarily the provenance. Otherwise it's just a cool story bra! Okay, okay, maybe such provenance could be used in the event of a stagnant negotiation, but I just don't see it otherwise. :shrug:

If I had the money and the option of a legit Tudor sub with provenance and one without, assuming all things are equal in model and condition, I'm walking away with the one without 10/10 times and using the savings toward another.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by gr8sw » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:49 pm

with current values, it's an absolute minefield... not surprised fakes are coming from the woodworks... you'd have to be nuts to jump into this market

would only buy one if it was from my neighbor, the original owner :lol:
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by sierra11b » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:56 pm

gr8sw wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:49 pm
would only buy one if it was from my neighbor, the original owner :lol:
Yep. He'd say $1500 and you'd counter with $3000 to make him feel over the moon, you less guilty on the value, and you still get to go over for Summer BBQ wearing the watch in appreciation. I guess this is part of my point in that the been there done that people of this world don't consider themselves gods among men, and either do I, especially in the form of a stupid watch. Although I do thank them all immensely.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 pm

Some of you wonder why us military collectors collect this stuff. My dad was in ww2 so since I was all ready collecting vintage watches I was in a vintage watch shop and saw a ww2 issued Elgin A-11 and bought it I knew a lot of ww2 vets. So easy to get into military watches. Then navigation watches that quartermaster would use I did a lot of deck watches when on ships in the Navy. And collect them for there history. And careful on the ones I collect glad I got in it when they were cheaper and most are not safe queens they show ware. And those issued Tudors even way back were to expensive at the time years back so never added one kind of glad I avoided them now. What I like about issued pilot watches is you know they were used as intended in the cockpit with all the bumps scratches on the case not like a brand new one that’s made to look like one and today the brand new ones are to expensive to be issued. Weird how the mediocre ones I collected years ago some worth a lot more today.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by Joeprez » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:17 pm

toxicavenger wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:48 am
JBZ wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:40 am
Vintage Rolex and Tudor is such a minefield with prices being what they are. Now add military provenance and it's pretty easy to see why these are attracting scammers. Even without the out and out fraud, it's even hard for so-called "experts" to determine what's original, what's replacement, and what's aftermarket.

I wouldn't buy one of these unless I was financially comfortable with the fact that I could ultimately end up with something worth a lot less or even worth nothing.
the only verification is "he said, she said" kind of crap. what a shitty way to try and verify something. people should make their own provenance then they would know the truth.
Completely agree... I prefer to buy newer watches and be the one to put the scuff, marks, history, etc.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by deepcdvr » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:36 pm

River Rat wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 pm
Some of you wonder why us military collectors collect this stuff. My dad was in ww2 so since I was all ready collecting vintage watches I was in a vintage watch shop and saw a ww2 issued Elgin A-11 and bought it I knew a lot of ww2 vets. So easy to get into military watches. Then navigation watches that quartermaster would use I did a lot of deck watches when on ships in the Navy. And collect them for there history. And careful on the ones I collect glad I got in it when they were cheaper and most are not safe queens they show ware. And those issued Tudors even way back were to expensive at the time years back so never added one kind of glad I avoided them now. What I like about issued pilot watches is you know they were used as intended in the cockpit with all the bumps scratches on the case not like a brand new one that’s made to look like one and today the brand new ones are to expensive to be issued. Weird how the mediocre ones I collected years ago some worth a lot more today.
I hear you, Mike

But a power seller was selling a Rolex sub for over $100K a couple of years ago and he had a big flowery story - with pictures, a signed letter, a set of aviator wings - from a Navy pilot that flew jets around for 25 years... I don’t think that watch was worth a dollar over any other sub out there. Just my 2 cents, but I stand by what I said: just because a military guy wore a watch, that doesn’t make it more valuable to me. :shrug:
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:05 pm

Paul
The most I ever paid was 2700 for the Eterna kontiki super IDF that has doubled that or more since I bought it. And I did my homework on it had another collector who owned a few of them give me the go ahead on it that it was legit. Most I ever paid. That civilian Tudor snowflake I have paid 2000 for it and hard to believe they go for 6000 or more insane. I all most added a US Navy Hamilton model 22 deck watch none gimbal box model like a large pocket watch with it’s 2 wooden boxes low serial number the seller had the quartermaster paper work but the serial number from the watch did not match the paper work so a bull shit story so passed I bought from him before. Because of the wrong paper work he wants 400 bucks more than it’s worth. Sounds like the French MN submariner. The ww2 navy navigation watches are about the only things I can afford these days to get my military watch fix. Every issue vintage wristwatch I like are past the limit I want to pay over 2700 bucks I have limits what I will pay. Tell you if the paper work matched the deck watch it would of proved what ship it was on and ports of call in ww2 kind of a shame the seller trying to sell a lie.
Last edited by River Rat on Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by 93 Turbo » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:11 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:36 pm
River Rat wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 pm
Some of you wonder why us military collectors collect this stuff. My dad was in ww2 so since I was all ready collecting vintage watches I was in a vintage watch shop and saw a ww2 issued Elgin A-11 and bought it I knew a lot of ww2 vets. So easy to get into military watches. Then navigation watches that quartermaster would use I did a lot of deck watches when on ships in the Navy. And collect them for there history. And careful on the ones I collect glad I got in it when they were cheaper and most are not safe queens they show ware. And those issued Tudors even way back were to expensive at the time years back so never added one kind of glad I avoided them now. What I like about issued pilot watches is you know they were used as intended in the cockpit with all the bumps scratches on the case not like a brand new one that’s made to look like one and today the brand new ones are to expensive to be issued. Weird how the mediocre ones I collected years ago some worth a lot more today.
I hear you, Mike

But a power seller was selling a Rolex sub for over $100K a couple of years ago and he had a big flowery story - with pictures, a signed letter, a set of aviator wings - from a Navy pilot that flew jets around for 25 years... I don’t think that watch was worth a dollar over any other sub out there. Just my 2 cents, but I stand by what I said: just because a military guy wore a watch, that doesn’t make it more valuable to me. :shrug:
Agree Paul, in hind sight I should have sold my Aerospace for way more :bs: . But I couldn't be bothered and it's gone to another active duty military guy, who's trying to get the best watch for as little $.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by River Rat » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:46 pm

All the military watches I ever bought were made only for the military and not sold to the public until sold as surplus. So less mine fields. The problem with these Tudor were they were bought off the shelf so a civilian one can be faked real easy just a good engraving on the case back. And Rolex and Tudor has no department for there history like Omega and others have were you can get a archive letter as proof it was sold to the military.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by namor » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am

Its a hard thing to explain sometimes, but there is that perception about a mil issued item having a price premium attached to it. I know that I couldn't wait to get rid of the watch I was issued and replace it with a PX bought Seiko diver which I thought was vastly superior. Until a SF soldier I was diving with in PI showed me his Seiko 6159-7001 titanium Tuna and ruined me for life.

Just about anything I was issued was looked at as "lowest cost provider" to me, except for the pair of jet fins I liberated from Coronado.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by toxicavenger » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:26 pm

namor wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am
Its a hard thing to explain sometimes, but there is that perception about a mil issued item having a price premium attached to it. I know that I couldn't wait to get rid of the watch I was issued and replace it with a PX bought Seiko diver which I thought was vastly superior. Until a SF soldier I was diving with in PI showed me his Seiko 6159-7001 titanium Tuna and ruined me for life.

Just about anything I was issued was looked at as "lowest cost provider" to me, except for the pair of jet fins I liberated from Coronado.
Tacti-cool guys like anything with an NSN number. They don't understand that was the cheapest shit the government could get us. Not the best shit!

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by sierra11b » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:37 pm

River Rat wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 pm
Some of you wonder why us military collectors collect this stuff. My dad was in ww2 so since I was all ready collecting vintage watches I was in a vintage watch shop and saw a ww2 issued Elgin A-11 and bought it I knew a lot of ww2 vets. So easy to get into military watches. Then navigation watches that quartermaster would use I did a lot of deck watches when on ships in the Navy. And collect them for there history. And careful on the ones I collect glad I got in it when they were cheaper and most are not safe queens they show ware. And those issued Tudors even way back were to expensive at the time years back so never added one kind of glad I avoided them now. What I like about issued pilot watches is you know they were used as intended in the cockpit with all the bumps scratches on the case not like a brand new one that’s made to look like one and today the brand new ones are to expensive to be issued. Weird how the mediocre ones I collected years ago some worth a lot more today.
I don't think why people get into them is the question because I also took an interest in military watches. But even you have had to further downshift after snagging some gems before the boom. I've soured on the prospect because it's another hipster abomination in the watch game.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by sierra11b » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:11 pm

toxicavenger wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:26 pm
namor wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am
Its a hard thing to explain sometimes, but there is that perception about a mil issued item having a price premium attached to it. I know that I couldn't wait to get rid of the watch I was issued and replace it with a PX bought Seiko diver which I thought was vastly superior. Until a SF soldier I was diving with in PI showed me his Seiko 6159-7001 titanium Tuna and ruined me for life.

Just about anything I was issued was looked at as "lowest cost provider" to me, except for the pair of jet fins I liberated from Coronado.
Tacti-cool guys like anything with an NSN number. They don't understand that was the cheapest shit the government could get us. Not the best shit!
I was never issued a thing even though I served some time in a "sideburns out of regulation" unit for awhile, and never recall anyone I served with from various SOC/SOF units (including various ODAs, CAG) who had anything issued as well, but could be wrong, in that I never saw them wear whatever they might have kept, but would have asked as I was keen at the time if I saw something non-Casio or Ironman on their wrist. This was '98-'03 but would have encompassed a larger time period considering the lifers I was serving with at the time. Seems MARSOC treated its Marines better.

My tipping point was with my LRSD Platoon Sergeant's Sunnto but forget which model -- some LCD 45mm+ model. He was old-school and re-upped after a 6yr civilian hiatus (2nd Batt, SOA instructor, Florida phase RI), so might have been exposed to an issued watch if there ever was one. Asked to try out the features after having lost two PX timex and casios during a jump. I remember thinking it was SUPER expensive and how on earth would I manage it with my pager, cable, and beer expenses. :lol:

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by Henryj » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:58 pm

I have a genuine early 70s hand wind Vulcain that I can personally verify was worn by a genuine Engine Room Supervisor on a genuine nuclear submarine making genuine deterrent patrols with (maybe) genuine nuclear tipped missiles. It even has a genuine acrylic crystal cracked on a nuclear plant hand wheel (I could tell you the valve number, but then I’d have to kill you). How much would it be worth on MWR?

Seriously, though, my interest in military watches begins and ends on being interested in what’s unbreakable. What “collectibles” I have are stuff from my dad’s career and mine.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by aikiman44 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:17 pm

I like to think that my Eterna KonTiki was worn by a Shayetet 13 Diver mining an enemy PT boat in the Red Sea, circa 1973. Or that my Heuer Bund spent time on a jet chasing Migs over Eastern Europe, 1970’s.
Watches made for a specific purpose worn by honorable men serving their countries.
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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by toxicavenger » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:16 pm

sierra11b wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:11 pm
toxicavenger wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:26 pm
namor wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am
Its a hard thing to explain sometimes, but there is that perception about a mil issued item having a price premium attached to it. I know that I couldn't wait to get rid of the watch I was issued and replace it with a PX bought Seiko diver which I thought was vastly superior. Until a SF soldier I was diving with in PI showed me his Seiko 6159-7001 titanium Tuna and ruined me for life.

Just about anything I was issued was looked at as "lowest cost provider" to me, except for the pair of jet fins I liberated from Coronado.
Tacti-cool guys like anything with an NSN number. They don't understand that was the cheapest shit the government could get us. Not the best shit!
I was never issued a thing even though I served some time in a "sideburns out of regulation" unit for awhile, and never recall anyone I served with from various SOC/SOF units (including various ODAs, CAG) who had anything issued as well, but could be wrong, in that I never saw them wear whatever they might have kept, but would have asked as I was keen at the time if I saw something non-Casio or Ironman on their wrist. This was '98-'03 but would have encompassed a larger time period considering the lifers I was serving with at the time. Seems MARSOC treated its Marines better.

My tipping point was with my LRSD Platoon Sergeant's Sunnto but forget which model -- some LCD 45mm+ model. He was old-school and re-upped after a 6yr civilian hiatus (2nd Batt, SOA instructor, Florida phase RI), so might have been exposed to an issued watch if there ever was one. Asked to try out the features after having lost two PX timex and casios during a jump. I remember thinking it was SUPER expensive and how on earth would I manage it with my pager, cable, and beer expenses. :lol:
We had a few supply SGT's who raided the NSN catalog and got some watches. While us legs went to the px and drooled over the next Timex/Suunto/G-shock turd.

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Re: Tudor Military Subs - Sounds like lots of fakes out there

Post by 1954Selmer » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:02 am

If you showed me a watch that was once owned by an unknown veteran that was not in your family, I would NOT be impressed. If you have volunteered two weeks a year since 1992 supporting veterans, I would be impressed.

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