Spring bar length difference on bracelet's and natos?

[toxicavenger]

So I know Omega/Tudor and a few other manufactures recommend certain spring bars for the bracelet and then a different one for the natos. Why is this? I heard that because they go deeper into the lug holes. How is this true? They still have the same tip length and diameter. The lug holes are only so deep no matter you would do. And if one did go farther into the lug hole don't you think you would only use that type of spring bar, and not a shorter one?

I am trying to make sense of this and figure if it is legit or not. Because the other thing is the spring bars have the same middle diameter also, so it wouldn't affect anything.

Help out a guy who isn't that smart

[hoppes-no9]

double

[hoppes-no9]

Generally the longer springbars are used on straps, where the twisting and movement of the strap can cause a springbar to compress and/or become dislodged. The longer length helps prevent that from happening by increasing the amount of pressure exerted by the spring on the tips.

Shorter springbars are used on bracelets since there's less chance of anything torquing the springbar and causing it to pop.

At least, that's my understanding of the issue.

[Rackness]

I can’t speak to the tip length . I have heard of natos catching on the flanges and could dislodge the spring bar. I have never experienced it personally but with the forums you hear anything and everything. Smaller and more rounded flanges for nato and larger and sharper edges for bracelets since you have limited purchase area? Looking at the two bars in the picture one looks like it might be better suited for nato(bottom) and the other (top) for bracelet based on my mostly made up on the spot criteria.

[hoppyjr]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

This is not a cost effective nor efficient solution for the person who only occasionally wears their watch on a nato, but it’s ideal for those who primarily go nato.

With lug holes it’s obvious, as you use shoulder-less anyway. When using on a non-lug hole case you simply snip the bar with a pair of wire cutters when you wish to go back to other strap options or bracelet.

[toxicavenger]

Generally the longer springbars are used on straps, where the twisting and movement of the strap can cause a springbar to compress and/or become dislodged. The longer length helps prevent that from happening by increasing the amount of pressure exerted by the spring on the tips.

Shorter springbars are used on bracelets since there's less chance of anything torquing the springbar and causing it to pop.

At least, that's my understanding of the issue.

Unfortunately it is forum lore that nato grab onto springs bars or cause more stress imo. They apply pressure at the same place a leather strap/bracelet.
I tried to recreate the twisting of a nato to release spring bars and it did not work at all. The only way I ever see this happening is if a strap is completely unraveled and it was wrapped a spring bar flange. I dont' even see how that would be possible.

Just my .02.

I can’t speak to the tip length . I have heard of natos catching on the flanges and could dislodge the spring bar. I have never experienced it personally but with the forums you hear anything and everything. Smaller and more rounded flanges for nato and larger and sharper edges for bracelets since you have limited purchase area? Looking at the two bars in the picture one looks like it might be better suited for nato(bottom) and the other (top) for bracelet based on my mostly made up on the spot criteria.

The flanges are made pretty much the same. No difference, certain ones have a stepped edge but that is it.

I don't see why one longer than the other makes a difference, they still both have the same depth and width.

[toxicavenger]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

[dnslater]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

Terry,

Now that you are on Youtube, you should do some interesting tests, hanging weights from a Nato strap with various spring bars that you sell. Would be interesting to see how much force it takes for failure with different styles.... shoulderless, Seiko fat, curved, etc....

[toxicavenger]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

Terry,

Now that you are on Youtube, you should do some interesting tests, hanging weights from a Nato strap with various spring bars that you sell. Would be interesting to see how much force it takes for failure with different styles.... shoulderless, Seiko fat, curved, etc....

I would, if I had spare watch cases? I think I might have two laying around but I have to find them. I think the lug holes would eventually get damaged.

Most of the people I keeping hearing from are talking about this "nylon twist" phenomena. I have not been able to recreate it. Oh the "grabbing on flanges" that didn't happen either. So with that being said I think they would doubt the weight test.

I did hang a Shiznit buy a 10lb kettle bell for almost a month to test out the buckle spring bar. Since a few guys had doubts about that.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfClmayAwFa ... toxicnatos

I actually forgot about it until my wife asked what I was doing.

[hoppyjr]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

I’m not interested in arguing the point, but I’ve done it before. A bracelet exerts even pressure along the spring bar, a rubber or leather strap does too, to a slightly lesser extent. With a nato there are mitigating factors; the condition of the strap, the material of the strap, the strength of the spring in the spring bar, etc. all play a part.

My decision to use shoulder-less bars is because I run most of my watches with only one-piece or nato straps. By eliminating the shoulder, I essentially create a faux fixed-bar situation. I am also careful to select a bar with the correct tip diameter for the watch case / lug hole, so as to ensure proper fit and minimal movement. Is it overkill? Yes, definitely, but it’s what I like.

[toxicavenger]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

I’m not interested in arguing the point, but I’ve done it before. A bracelet exerts even pressure along the spring bar, a rubber or leather strap does too, to a slightly lesser extent. With a nato there are mitigating factors; the condition of the strap, the material of the strap, the strength of the spring in the spring bar, etc. all play a part.

My decision to use shoulder-less bars is because I run most of my watches with only one-piece or nato straps. By eliminating the shoulder, I essentially create a faux fixed-bar situation. I am also careful to select a bar with the correct tip diameter for the watch case / lug hole, so as to ensure proper fit and minimal movement. Is it overkill? Yes, definitely, but it’s what I like.

The shoulderless spring bar only goes in as far as the hole is drilled. The correct spring bar should also fill that drilled hole completely. RIght? So what would be the difference? Just the flanges.

I agree there are a ton mitigating factors. But like I said I have never seen this happen with the correct spring bars installed with a nato . And those mitigating factors all apply to bracelet/rubber/nato/leather strap.

Like you said though, what you like is all that matters. And my post was about why "two exact spring bars with the same tips but only 1mm length difference would matter". I don't see how it would. And shoulderless spring bars do not address this question.

[hoppyjr]

The shoulders of the bar can get caught in the nylon and be pulled free. It has nothing to do with how far the bar goes in the hole.

[toxicavenger]

The shoulders of the bar can get caught in the nylon and be pulled free. It has nothing to do with how far the bar goes in the hole.

The pics I posted both have shoulders. One is for a nato and one is for a bracelet. So I was asking what is the difference? Why would there be two exact bars at two different lengths? It makes no sense.

I do understand what you are saying about the flanges. I have no idea how this is possible though. I have to see it believe it for sure. I think that if anyone has had this happen how is it even possible to see the actually spring bar grabbing the nato? It has to be assumption, and not actually investigating what it could have actually been.

Now if the spring bars had daggers for flanges I could believe it.

[toxicavenger]

I can tell you one thing a nato/nylon strap will do. It will release/fail if the spring bar is weak/or the wrong one is being used, before a bracelet would. The bracelet will wedge sideways and keep it in place most of the times. I nato is not able to do this.

[HapaHapa]

I can tell you one thing a nato/nylon strap will do. It will release/fail if the spring bar is weak/or the wrong one is being used, before a bracelet would. The bracelet will wedge sideways and keep it in place most of the times. I nato is not able to do this.

All good points above, and your comment on the bracelet is very good. End links can’t twist or pull. Extra tip length for safety factor isn’t necessary for a bracelet.

But, if you give her a really nice bracelet she may be more likely to comment positively on your tip.

[shaneotool]

I've had a problem where the spring bar tip was too long when installed with a bracelet. When trying to remove the bracelet, the notch in the endlink was not deep enough to compress the springbar enough to get the tip out of the hole. What a bitch. I look for shorter tips with bracelets now.

[ericf4]

so does this boil down to a case of Just the Tip? Thats all that matters?

[Ryeguy]

I've had a problem where the spring bar tip was too long when installed with a bracelet. When trying to remove the bracelet, the notch in the endlink was not deep enough to compress the springbar enough to get the tip out of the hole. What a bitch. I look for shorter tips with bracelets now.

I think this is probably the logic behind the situation Terry is pointing out.

On a bracelet, you might use the slightly shorter spring bar, with the shorter middle barrel. This might allow a user a slightly easier time to remove the bracelet as there is a shorter overall compressed length.

With a strap, you might want to use the longer spring bar with the slightly longer middle barrel. The longer barrel would offer some strength that is lost when a solid end link is not being used.

The negative to the longer barrel is it'll be more challenging to remove the spring bar, but straps and NATO's allow much more room for tools than a bracelet.

I don't think it is the spring bar tips as much as it is the spring bar barrels. The tips, as Terry states, will only go into the hole as deeply as the hole is drilled.

Just my thought. I've actually never noticed this before, but then again, I'm mostly a Seiko guy...

[toxicavenger]

But, if you give her a really nice bracelet she may be more likely to comment positively on your tip.

maybe, I think it is according to cost.

[toxicavenger]

I've had a problem where the spring bar tip was too long when installed with a bracelet. When trying to remove the bracelet, the notch in the endlink was not deep enough to compress the springbar enough to get the tip out of the hole. What a bitch. I look for shorter tips with bracelets now.

Paul, you definitely don't want a short spring bar tip, this will mean it won't be fully engaging into the lug hole. That is not a good idea at all. What you need is a spring bar with double flanges, that way it has more areas you can release it from.

[toxicavenger]

I've had a problem where the spring bar tip was too long when installed with a bracelet. When trying to remove the bracelet, the notch in the endlink was not deep enough to compress the springbar enough to get the tip out of the hole. What a bitch. I look for shorter tips with bracelets now.

I think this is probably the logic behind the situation Terry is pointing out.

On a bracelet, you might use the slightly shorter spring bar, with the shorter middle barrel. This might allow a user a slightly easier time to remove the bracelet as there is a shorter overall compressed length.

With a strap, you might want to use the longer spring bar with the slightly longer middle barrel. The longer barrel would offer some strength that is lost when a solid end link is not being used.

The negative to the longer barrel is it'll be more challenging to remove the spring bar, but straps and NATO's allow much more room for tools than a bracelet.

I don't think it is the spring bar tips as much as it is the spring bar barrels. The tips, as Terry states, will only go into the hole as deeply as the hole is drilled.

Just my thought. I've actually never noticed this before, but then again, I'm mostly a Seiko guy...

The middle barrel section should not affect the how much of the end of the spring bar compresses. The only way it would is if you have a spring bar that is too large for the watch and the middle barrel is almost the same size as the lug width. IMO of course.

[Ryeguy]

I've had a problem where the spring bar tip was too long when installed with a bracelet. When trying to remove the bracelet, the notch in the endlink was not deep enough to compress the springbar enough to get the tip out of the hole. What a bitch. I look for shorter tips with bracelets now.

I think this is probably the logic behind the situation Terry is pointing out.

On a bracelet, you might use the slightly shorter spring bar, with the shorter middle barrel. This might allow a user a slightly easier time to remove the bracelet as there is a shorter overall compressed length.

With a strap, you might want to use the longer spring bar with the slightly longer middle barrel. The longer barrel would offer some strength that is lost when a solid end link is not being used.

The negative to the longer barrel is it'll be more challenging to remove the spring bar, but straps and NATO's allow much more room for tools than a bracelet.

I don't think it is the spring bar tips as much as it is the spring bar barrels. The tips, as Terry states, will only go into the hole as deeply as the hole is drilled.

Just my thought. I've actually never noticed this before, but then again, I'm mostly a Seiko guy...

The middle barrel section should not affect the how much of the end of the spring bar compresses. The only way it would is if you have a spring bar that is too large for the watch and the middle barrel is almost the same size as the lug width. IMO of course.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't this the question you are asking?

If a manufacturer has a watch with a 20mm lug width and recommends springbar "A" with the bracelet and springbar "B" with the strap, the likely difference between the two springbars is the barrel length. The springbar tips will insert into the watch lug a fixed distance - the depth of the hole.

A longer springbar has the ability to be "rocked" between the lugs when using a strap. A bracelet endlink cannot be "rocked" into place, so in this case the springbar must be able to compress less than 20mm. When the tips are fully extended, the spring inside the springbar barrel under its weakest tension, but this is OK with an endlink as everything is held tightly by the link itself.

This is all just a SWAG of course. Plus, I could be misunderstanding the question altogether.

I will agree with Hop, though. Shoulderless bars with a drilled lug watch is probably the most secure attachment method next to fixed bars.

[toxicavenger]

I've had a problem where the spring bar tip was too long when installed with a bracelet. When trying to remove the bracelet, the notch in the endlink was not deep enough to compress the springbar enough to get the tip out of the hole. What a bitch. I look for shorter tips with bracelets now.

I think this is probably the logic behind the situation Terry is pointing out.

On a bracelet, you might use the slightly shorter spring bar, with the shorter middle barrel. This might allow a user a slightly easier time to remove the bracelet as there is a shorter overall compressed length.

With a strap, you might want to use the longer spring bar with the slightly longer middle barrel. The longer barrel would offer some strength that is lost when a solid end link is not being used.

The negative to the longer barrel is it'll be more challenging to remove the spring bar, but straps and NATO's allow much more room for tools than a bracelet.

I don't think it is the spring bar tips as much as it is the spring bar barrels. The tips, as Terry states, will only go into the hole as deeply as the hole is drilled.

Just my thought. I've actually never noticed this before, but then again, I'm mostly a Seiko guy...

The middle barrel section should not affect the how much of the end of the spring bar compresses. The only way it would is if you have a spring bar that is too large for the watch and the middle barrel is almost the same size as the lug width. IMO of course.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't this the question you are asking?

If a manufacturer has a watch with a 20mm lug width and recommends springbar "A" with the bracelet and springbar "B" with the strap, the likely difference between the two springbars is the barrel length. The springbar tips will insert into the watch lug a fixed distance - the depth of the hole.

A longer springbar has the ability to be "rocked" between the lugs when using a strap. A bracelet endlink cannot be "rocked" into place, so in this case the springbar must be able to compress less than 20mm. When the tips are fully extended, the spring inside the springbar barrel under its weakest tension, but this is OK with an endlink as everything is held tightly by the link itself.

This is all just a SWAG of course. Plus, I could be misunderstanding the question altogether.

I will agree with Hop, though. Shoulderless bars with a drilled lug watch is probably the most secure attachment method next to fixed bars.

Great explanation. My question was why two different spring bars, when one works perfectly? There is no advantage. The bracelet/strap/nylon all rest on the same real estate.

The spring no matter the design has to be able to compress less that 20mm to fit. If you are saying on a strap you can put the spring bar side in one at a time, that is true. And yes you could use a longer middle section spring bar for that. But the flanges will take up at least 2mm's of room, so the middle section can only be so long.

Hoppy is saying the reason why he uses shoudlerss spring bars is because the flanges on regular spring bars can release a strap. So he uses them on watches without drilled lugs. I get that they add more security for him.

I do agree shoulderless spring bars with drilled lugs are the best solution.

[dnslater]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

Terry,

Now that you are on Youtube, you should do some interesting tests, hanging weights from a Nato strap with various spring bars that you sell. Would be interesting to see how much force it takes for failure with different styles.... shoulderless, Seiko fat, curved, etc....

I would, if I had spare watch cases? I think I might have two laying around but I have to find them. I think the lug holes would eventually get damaged.

Most of the people I keeping hearing from are talking about this "nylon twist" phenomena. I have not been able to recreate it. Oh the "grabbing on flanges" that didn't happen either. So with that being said I think they would doubt the weight test.

I did hang a Shiznit buy a 10lb kettle bell for almost a month to test out the buckle spring bar. Since a few guys had doubts about that.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfClmayAwFa ... toxicnatos

I actually forgot about it until my wife asked what I was doing.

If you are serious, I would be happy to contribute a Seiko BFK case and/or an Orange Monster case to the cause.

You can buy a hanging scale for $10.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079M22FHP/re ... b4c2118074

[toxicavenger]

To prevent any chance of a spring bar shoulder getting pulled free by a nylon strap, I install shoulder-less spring bars on my watches that wear nylon.

How does a nylon strap pull a spring bar lose? Actually the tips in the picture I posted are the same, so what is they nylon going to do to one that it won't do another?

I have not been able to recreate this, and all I hear about is people who speak it but never had it happened with the correctly sized spring bars for their watches, or "they heard of someone".

Terry,

Now that you are on Youtube, you should do some interesting tests, hanging weights from a Nato strap with various spring bars that you sell. Would be interesting to see how much force it takes for failure with different styles.... shoulderless, Seiko fat, curved, etc....

I would, if I had spare watch cases? I think I might have two laying around but I have to find them. I think the lug holes would eventually get damaged.

Most of the people I keeping hearing from are talking about this "nylon twist" phenomena. I have not been able to recreate it. Oh the "grabbing on flanges" that didn't happen either. So with that being said I think they would doubt the weight test.

I did hang a Shiznit buy a 10lb kettle bell for almost a month to test out the buckle spring bar. Since a few guys had doubts about that.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfClmayAwFa ... toxicnatos

I actually forgot about it until my wife asked what I was doing.

If you are serious, I would be happy to contribute a Seiko BFK case and/or an Orange Monster case to the cause.

I did a test today. I will get in online tonight.

Thanks bro