New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

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logan2z
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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by logan2z » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:59 am

Whether or not a watch is still in production is irrelevant IMO. You don't own the design, you can't use it. I can't personally support a watch company whose entire strategy is to profit from someone else's IP.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Steelman » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:11 am

just realized...to add insult to injury...isn't there another microbrand company with a "hammerhead" model?

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by dnslater » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:18 am

Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:29 am
Am I crazy or is longines stacking up really well against Tudor in the price/quality/style department these days?
Longines makes nice watches, but largely don't they use off the shelf ETA movements? Tudor is going all in-house and really stepping up their movement game with silicone balance spring, 70 hour PR, etc..... I think their movements rival Omega's Coax and Tudor actually is learning to make a thin watch.

In the Swatch group jierarchy, I always saw Longines as a step above Mido/Hamilton, but well below Omega.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Ryeguy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:25 am

logan2z wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:59 am
Whether or not a watch is still in production is irrelevant IMO. You don't own the design, you can't use it. I can't personally support a watch company whose entire strategy is to profit from someone else's IP.
So, taking watches as the subject matter out of the equation, by your standard, this is not OK:
Image

Nor is this:
Image

I'm guessing you only wear Levi Strauss blue jeans too? They are the original design / patent owner. All other jean brands are simply profiting from Levi Strauss' IP.

Again, I know I'm being a bit argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, but as much as I'll bash Helson for copying a currently in production design, I know I'm guilty of supporting design profiteering in other elements of my life.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Ryeguy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:29 am

dnslater wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:18 am
Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:29 am
Am I crazy or is longines stacking up really well against Tudor in the price/quality/style department these days?
Longines makes nice watches, but largely don't they use off the shelf ETA movements? Tudor is going all in-house and really stepping up their movement game with silicone balance spring, 70 hour PR, etc..... I think their movements rival Omega's Coax and Tudor actually is learning to make a thin watch.

In the Swatch group jierarchy, I always saw Longines as a step above Mido/Hamilton, but well below Omega.
I agree. In my personal "Ryeguy hierarchy of horological achievement" the use of an in-house movement places the manufacturer above a competitor who uses an off-the-shelf movement.

Maybe when Tudor was using ETA movements in their designs I could see the comparison, but now that they are leveraging in-house movements (with some decent features such as enhanced power reserve and independently adjustable hour hand on their GMT design), I think they have pulled ahead.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by logan2z » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:07 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:25 am
logan2z wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:59 am
Whether or not a watch is still in production is irrelevant IMO. You don't own the design, you can't use it. I can't personally support a watch company whose entire strategy is to profit from someone else's IP.
So, taking watches as the subject matter out of the equation, by your standard, this is not OK:
Image

Nor is this:
Image

I'm guessing you only wear Levi Strauss blue jeans too? They are the original design / patent owner. All other jean brands are simply profiting from Levi Strauss' IP.

Again, I know I'm being a bit argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, but as much as I'll bash Helson for copying a currently in production design, I know I'm guilty of supporting design profiteering in other elements of my life.
I can't speak to the gun design because I know nothing about it but, by my standard, it is not ok to sell an exact replica of someone else's car design. You want to be a legitimate car manufacturer then come up with your own original design. How do you think it would be received by the car community if a company like, say, Subaru, came out with an exact replica of a classic car like the Ferrari GTO?

In the case of Levi Strauss, they didn't invent pants or denim. Their patent was an "Improvement in Fastening Pocket-Openings" by using rivets at the stress points. Utility patents in the US protect the invention for 20 years. After that it's fair game.

We can all apply our own standard of ethics to things like the Helson watches. However, I think it would be hard for anyone to argue against the fact that the watch in question is a flagrant misappropriation of someone else's design and reflects poorly on the company.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by River Rat » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:11 am

To me any Boutique watch co that does a exact copy of any watch vintage or new and put there name on it is fake and counterfeit they stole the idea from another even if they are not making it any more. This forum use to tear this owner of another watch forum a new asshole for wearing a counterfeit Omega and others brands years ago what the fuck happen to this forum were it's now OK to wear a counterfeit fake remake watches stolen ideas if you can't afford the real McCoy well tough you just can't own it there are a lot of watches I like and can't afford and I don't go get a fake copy of it.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by BSears » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:18 am

Well let’s back up here a second. Ripping off a design is one thing. But a fake/counterfeit is a watch that looks exactly like the original INCLUDING the branding of an original. Oscar the gas-bag fuck face Gaspar wore a fake Omega. It looked like an Omega, it said Omega on the dial and back, but it was not an Omega. Not the same thing as Helson ripping off a design and then slapping their name on it. I call that misappropriation of design elements, among other things.
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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by sierra11b » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:26 am

Browning designed the 1911 and Colt produced it for the Army. During the height of WWII every machine shop was ordered to do their part and a couple non-arms manufacturers made some of the best traditional 1911s by today standard.

Today high end 1911 internals might be unrecognizable to John Browning. If he were to see a custom 1911 today I think he’d be flattered and blown-away with “why didn’t I think of that” epiphany. He’d then get to work in designing the next great pistol for the 21st century.

But plenty of other gun platforms have been cloned. Some are as good or better than the originals and some are pot metal garbage. Some were cloned for legal loopholes, import regulations, or because they were no longer being made. I try to own the original design if available but don’t fault those who have ten different AR15 from different manufacturers, or Tanfoglio series 88.

I guess my point is guns are still considered tools whereas the “tool watch” aspect of watches waived bye bye decades ago. They’ve always been fashion pieces to some degree but now they’re 100% for fashion. Nobody is going to buy this watch or Helsons other knockoffs thinking its going to make them a better diver. They’re buying it because it’ll be cheaper than the LLD which has no real tool value either.

Guns remind me of hammers. Nobody would expect a carpenter or contractor to say “yes” if asked if the timeless proven design of the original hammer be changed. You walk in to a hardware store and buy your generic wooden handed hammer...? That’s your cheap 1911 GI model. You want space-age handle material and alloy steel...? That’s your high end or custom.

With watches being purely fashion these days I think original design is everything.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by ericf4 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:42 am

Panerai7 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Had the grey dial for a few weeks on loan and couldn't live with the date window.

Image
I love the alpina.....now i can't unsee the fact that the date window is slapped awkwardly between the hour markers....

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by dinexus » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:10 pm

There's a reason he didn't promote this one...

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Panerai7 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:36 pm

dinexus wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:10 pm
There's a reason he didn't promote this one...
I like/bought some of their models but I don't promote Alpina lol

Edit: I think the date window looks better on a white dial I have yet to try

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Ryeguy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:43 pm

sierra11b wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:26 am
With watches being purely fashion these days I think original design is everything.
Not trying to be a jerk here and I totally respect the differences in opinion on this topic, but this design is actually from EPSA and was used by a half dozen companies way back. EPSA went out of business in 1975, so,in my opinion, this design is fair game for any manufacturer. Others may have differing opinions on this point.

Where Helson went sideways IMO is the near replication (but not exact) of the Longines dial layout and handset.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Seppia » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:03 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
dnslater wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:18 am
Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:29 am
Am I crazy or is longines stacking up really well against Tudor in the price/quality/style department these days?
In the Swatch group jierarchy, I always saw Longines as a step above Mido/Hamilton, but well below Omega.
I agree. In my personal "Ryeguy hierarchy of horological achievement" the use of an in-house movement places the manufacturer above a competitor who uses an off-the-shelf movement.
But most of today’s Longines look good, while most of today’s Omega suck.
You may have a great in house movement but if your watch looks like an oddly colored hockey puck I’ll pass on your offering and buy a nice Longines with an eta movement instead.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by logan2z » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Ryeguy wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:43 pm
sierra11b wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:26 am
With watches being purely fashion these days I think original design is everything.
Not trying to be a jerk here and I totally respect the differences in opinion on this topic, but this design is actually from EPSA and was used by a half dozen companies way back. EPSA went out of business in 1975, so,in my opinion, this design is fair game for any manufacturer. Others may have differing opinions on this point.

Where Helson went sideways IMO is the near replication (but not exact) of the Longines dial layout and handset.
You're right that the Supercompressor technology was from EPSA and many manufacturers made use of it in their watches. But there were many variations of the actual case designs:

Image

Image

Image

*Photos borrowed from scubawatch.org

I think it's pretty obvious that Helson was not simply trying to make a 'compressor style' watch but had every intention of producing a near-verbatim copy of the LLD.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Americandave » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:52 pm

dnslater wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:18 am
Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:29 am
Am I crazy or is longines stacking up really well against Tudor in the price/quality/style department these days?
Longines makes nice watches, but largely don't they use off the shelf ETA movements? Tudor is going all in-house and really stepping up their movement game with silicone balance spring, 70 hour PR, etc..... I think their movements rival Omega's Coax and Tudor actually is learning to make a thin watch.

In the Swatch group jierarchy, I always saw Longines as a step above Mido/Hamilton, but well below Omega.
I actually am thinking of the Tudor ETA days. Affordable but cool vintage styles, ease of service and so on. Tudor to me seems to be getting more exclusive with its in house moves.

The designs on the new longines I’ve really liked except for the damn date windows. Some of them look like an ugly photoshop on a vintage dial.

In terms of Helson this is pretty close to a copy, have to agree with the view that it is a knock off. Like even more so than a MKII as much as it pains me to say it.

If it’s actually 300m resistant still impressed

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Blackdog » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:52 pm

Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:52 pm
If it’s actually 300m resistant still impressed
Good WR is not really rocket science this days. The quality machining of cases is not so difficult to achive with modern production machinery.

That said, don't necessarily believe everything a micro brand prints on a dial.

I don't think any of this watches is actually tested beyond 10 bar. Then, who can actually call their bluff ? And if you can't prove it wrong, does it really matter?

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Panerai7 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:44 am

Blackdog wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:52 pm
Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:52 pm
If it’s actually 300m resistant still impressed
Good WR is not really rocket science this days.
Haha, yeah just ask zhezhe ay lulu :lol:

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Denizen » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:10 am

logan2z wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:07 pm
I think it's pretty obvious that Helson was not simply trying to make a 'compressor style' watch but had every intention of producing a near-verbatim copy of the LLD.
Nailed it!

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by JBZ » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:31 pm

Blackdog wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:52 pm
Americandave wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:52 pm
If it’s actually 300m resistant still impressed
Good WR is not really rocket science this days. The quality machining of cases is not so difficult to achive with modern production machinery.

That said, don't necessarily believe everything a micro brand prints on a dial.

I don't think any of this watches is actually tested beyond 10 bar. Then, who can actually call their bluff ? And if you can't prove it wrong, does it really matter?
I doubt any micros have actually tested their extreme depth watches. To test the DSSD, Rolex had to build its own machine with help from Comex, and I’m sure that was a significant cash outlay.

Not that micros can’t build watches that should theoretically be resistant to extreme depths. I just doubt any of them are actually testing it.
Image

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Americandave » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:13 pm

Are there any modern super compressor watches? This thread has me scouring google for a proper compressor cased watch but all I can find is vintage

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Blackdog » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:33 am

Americandave wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:13 pm
Are there any modern super compressor watches? This thread has me scouring google for a proper compressor cased watch but all I can find is vintage
I don't think there are. It was a rather complicated design that involved a spring loaded case back, so that the gasket was progressively compressed as the pressure increased, so it was not subjected to compression all the time to prolong it's life. With modern gaskets I don't think there's any need for that anymore. IIRC the SC cases were good for 200m WR at most anyway.

I never understood the connection (or need) for an internal bezel with the SC cases. First, it is impractical In real diving life, and second is one more crown to seal properly.

Back in the day I used to own one of these:

Image

An authentic Supercompressor. I think it was '68 or '69...

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Blackdog » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:49 am

JBZ wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:31 pm
I doubt any micros have actually tested their extreme depth watches. To test the DSSD, Rolex had to build its own machine with help from Comex, and I’m sure that was a significant cash outlay.

Not that micros can’t build watches that should theoretically be resistant to extreme depths. I just doubt any of them are actually testing it.
The only time the WR figures printed on the dial have any meaning is if the company clearly claims to be ISO6425 compliant, in which case it is the spec (plus 25% margin) against which EVERY watch has tested before going in the market. Among other tests.

Failing that, it's only marketing.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the watch is not dive worthy. A well designed and quality built watch, with the seals in good condition will likely pass a 10 bar test without problems.

With the robust build of the typical dive watches of today, at 10 or 20 bars there is no significant deformation of the case elements. At those pressures you're just testing the integrity of the seals. So, if it is good at 10 bar, it's likely just as good at 20 or even 30 bars. And I tend to keep my dives shallower than that, anyway...

At 300m underwater what you'll find is a perfectly fine watch on the wrist of a dead diver. :o

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by gonzomantis » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:36 am

Americandave wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:13 pm
Are there any modern super compressor watches? This thread has me scouring google for a proper compressor cased watch but all I can find is vintage
Dan at OWC makes a supercompressor case. He was posting here a while back. He describes his models as "in spirit of" classic designs. Decide for yourself where they stand in the homage debate.

I don't know of any others in current production.

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Re: New release by Helson. I don't quite get the point/

Post by Morethan1 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:46 am

I have a no date version. It's at 1850 now. Have at it.
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