Your FITBIT and your safety

[Nomadz]

The other thing that amazes me is people willing to have an always-on internet-connected microphone in their home. Are you kidding me??

I think a lot of regular people just really don't care if they are being tracked or listened too. I don't have an Echo or any of those devices, but I don't work in national security and don't really give much thought to people tracking my location. Figure I have enough to worry about with more tangible things.

Privacy isn't tangible?

Didn't say that. Said more worried about "more" tangible things. Work, family, etc... I worry a lot less about Apple knowing what route I am taking home from work.

If we were truly worried about privacy we’d rescind the patriot act and all of the invasive practices it authorizes as well as the “secret courts” that are allowed to issue warrants with out any accountability. We’d also not repatriate citizens from foreign. countries by kidnapping them and we wouldn’t hold people in “detention centers” with out trials indefinitely. That’s just for starts if we were as a society really interested in our collective privacy and our rights.


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I disagree with you here. FISA hearings have plenty of accountability. Some threats to our great nation need to be brought to justice. I agree we should not "kidnap" most of them (though rendition programs are essentially over). Killing them would be more desirable. As for the shitbags we have in detention centers. To a man they need to be deep sixed.

[Captdave]

The other thing that amazes me is people willing to have an always-on internet-connected microphone in their home. Are you kidding me??

I think a lot of regular people just really don't care if they are being tracked or listened too. I don't have an Echo or any of those devices, but I don't work in national security and don't really give much thought to people tracking my location. Figure I have enough to worry about with more tangible things.

Privacy isn't tangible?

Didn't say that. Said more worried about "more" tangible things. Work, family, etc... I worry a lot less about Apple knowing what route I am taking home from work.

If we were truly worried about privacy we’d rescind the patriot act and all of the invasive practices it authorizes as well as the “secret courts” that are allowed to issue warrants with out any accountability. We’d also not repatriate citizens from foreign. countries by kidnapping them and we wouldn’t hold people in “detention centers” with out trials indefinitely. That’s just for starts if we were as a society really interested in our collective privacy and our rights.


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I disagree with you here. FISA hearings have plenty of accountability. Some threats to our great nation need to be brought to justice. I agree we should not "kidnap" most of them (though rendition programs are essentially over). Killing them would be more desirable. As for the shitbags we have in detention centers. To a man they need to be deep sixed.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Any court that you can’t represent yourself or be represented in to defend yourself is like the king county inquest hearings where only one side gets to present its case. That’s not accountable in my way of thinking. I also don’t think that it’s legal, moral or right to execute American citizens on foreign soil without due process. As for the detainees I don’t disagree but, we’re a nation of law and we need to try them and if found guilty then execute them. Not hold them indefinitely without benefit of charges or trial. That’s not the values of our great country nor was it what the founding fathers envisioned.


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[Grahamcombat]

As the President who sent US vessels around the world to kill the Barbary Pirates, it seems Thomas Jefferson - American statesman, Founding Father, and the principal author of the United States Constitution - I’d argue that extraordinary rendition, exceptional execution, and the targeted killing program is exactly what he envisioned.

[Captdave]

As the President who sent US vessels around the world to kill the Barbary Pirates, it seems Thomas Jefferson - American statesman, Founding Father, and the principal author of the United States Constitution - I’d argue that extraordinary rendition, exceptional execution, and the targeted killing program is exactly what he envisioned.

He also owned slaves but I don’t think that makes it right to own slaves do you? We obviously disagree so I’ll respect your right to your opinion and I hope you respect mine.


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[Captdave]

As the President who sent US vessels around the world to kill the Barbary Pirates, it seems Thomas Jefferson - American statesman, Founding Father, and the principal author of the United States Constitution - I’d argue that extraordinary rendition, exceptional execution, and the targeted killing program is exactly what he envisioned.

He also owned slaves but I don’t think that makes it right to own slaves do you? We obviously disagree so I’ll respect your right to your opinion and I hope you respect mine.


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[KidKeith]

As the President who sent US vessels around the world to kill the Barbary Pirates, it seems Thomas Jefferson - American statesman, Founding Father, and the principal author of the United States Constitution - I’d argue that extraordinary rendition, exceptional execution, and the targeted killing program is exactly what he envisioned.

Kind of ironic you chose Jefferson to try to prove your point...

"I consider trial by jury as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution." Thomas Jefferson

[bedlam]

The other thing that amazes me is people willing to have an always-on internet-connected microphone in their home. Are you kidding me??

I think a lot of regular people just really don't care if they are being tracked or listened too. I don't have an Echo or any of those devices, but I don't work in national security and don't really give much thought to people tracking my location. Figure I have enough to worry about with more tangible things.

Privacy isn't tangible?

Didn't say that. Said more worried about "more" tangible things. Work, family, etc... I worry a lot less about Apple knowing what route I am taking home from work.

If we were truly worried about privacy we’d rescind the patriot act and all of the invasive practices it authorizes as well as the “secret courts” that are allowed to issue warrants with out any accountability. We’d also not repatriate citizens from foreign. countries by kidnapping them and we wouldn’t hold people in “detention centers” with out trials indefinitely. That’s just for starts if we were as a society really interested in our collective privacy and our rights.

Yup.

[bedlam]

...I’d argue that extraordinary rendition, exceptional execution, and the targeted killing program is exactly what he envisioned.

The whole "do unto others what you would have them do unto you" is not a thing for you?

[Grahamcombat]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

[JDC222]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog."

[Captdave]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

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[bedlam]

People who like the sheepdog analogy seem also to assume they say who gets to be a dog, a sheep or wolf.

[Nomadz]

People who like the sheepdog analogy seem also to assume they say who gets to be a dog, a sheep or wolf.

Finally your understanding some of this. We are not averse to visit violence on those who would do us harm. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

[KidKeith]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog."

Tell that to Randy Weaver, Medgar Evers, Carlo Treska, MLK, Malcom X, Fred Hampton, David Koresh, Alex Odeh, Huey Newton, Thomas Wales.

You can argue who done it and you can argue the character and actions of the individuals listed but what you cannot argue is they never had a trial. They were killed either directly by the "sheep dog" or while the dog was having a convenient nap.

I'm not here to argue whether or not these events should or shouldn't have taken place. I'm just saying the sheep dog reference isn't complete when you forget to include the well timed naps.

[Grahamcombat]

[JDC222]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog."

Tell that to Randy Weaver, Medgar Evers, Carlo Treska, MLK, Malcom X, Fred Hampton, David Koresh, Alex Odeh, Huey Newton, Thomas Wales.

You can argue who done it and you can argue the character and actions of the individuals listed but what you cannot argue is they never had a trial. They were killed either directly by the "sheep dog" or while the dog was having a convenient nap.

I'm not here to argue whether or not these events should or shouldn't have taken place. I'm just saying the sheep dog reference isn't complete when you forget to include the well timed naps.

Interesting choice of Wolves....


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[KidKeith]

Interesting choice of Wolves....


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Interesting assumption that those listed were wolves and not sheep...

[Ryeguy]

Interesting choice of Wolves....


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Interesting assumption that those listed were wolves and not sheep...

With all respect to everyone in the conversation, the analogy of wolves, sheep dogs, and sheep, while illustrative, is really an over simplification.

We are not "wolves", "sheep dogs" or "sheep" in a static capacity, but rather we have the ability to transition from role to role and even hold multiple roles depending upon perspective.

I am the "sheep dog" to my family and will defend them with every fiber in my being. I feel I am a sheep dog to my community, doing my best to help others. But when viewed from the perspective of our military, I am most definitely one of the their sheep whom they are trying to protect.

Sheep dogs can become wolves, such as when a security guard decides to commit mass murder in a Florida night club or when a military psychologist attempts the same at Fort Hood.

Even our most lowly lambs can become wolves or sheep dogs depending upon intent. A mother who testifies against gang leaders or drug dealers in her community, or an elementary student who stands up to a classroom bully is definitely a sheep dog in my book. Alternatively, when some "students" hijack planes and fly them into businesses, or an immigrant hijacks a truck and drive it through a pedestrian holiday mall, these sheep have become wolves.

It isn't the gun or the uniform which makes you a sheep dog, a wolf, or a lamb. It is what lives within your heart and mind.

It would be lovely if we could pigeon hole people into one of these three categories, as it would make the LEO's job that much easier. The reality is we can't, which is why we need to be sheep dogs to our lambs, and our sheep dogs need sheep dogs to ensure they don't turn into wolves.

Enough of this.... I'm going back to playing with my Fitbit.

[Captdave]

People who like the sheepdog analogy seem also to assume they say who gets to be a dog, a sheep or wolf.

Finally your understanding some of this. We are not averse to visit violence on those who would do us harm. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

You are absolutely right whenever we are willing to trade our privacy and rights for “security” and accept that the “government” will protect us and not question how or at what cost to our freedoms and rights we’re on the road to self destruction as a country. We need to defend our country but not at the cost of unconstitutional policies and actions that the government knows are such and tries to hide from the citizens.


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[Sidheguitarist]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

I see what you did there, George.

[Captdave]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

I see what you did there, George.

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[Nomadz]

Huh. Interesting thoughts all around.

Sleep safely tonight.

I see what you did there, George.

Hence the....”visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

[Sidheguitarist]

Hence the....”visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

And there's only two acceptable ways to do that: not at all, Orwell...

[Nomadz]

People who like the sheepdog analogy seem also to assume they say who gets to be a dog, a sheep or wolf.

Finally your understanding some of this. We are not averse to visit violence on those who would do us harm. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

You are absolutely right whenever we are willing to trade our privacy and rights for “security” and accept that the “government” will protect us and not question how or at what cost to our freedoms and rights we’re on the road to self destruction as a country. We need to defend our country but not at the cost of unconstitutional policies and actions that the government knows are such and tries to hide from the citizens.


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We are going to be completely at odds on the reality here.
You have a pretty accurate parroting of the left/right wing post modernist view. I would say the opposite is true. The View that this is somehow the thought process of reasonable human beings in a civilized society is just moral relativism run amok.

The world was not in the time of the founding fathers a safe or equitable place. The incredible economic and political freedom we have today came at a high cost. Most of the citizenry today have no concept of how that cost is met. The insidious creep towards weakness and mediocrity is what is killing this great Nation.

[Nomadz]

Hence the....”visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

And there's only two acceptable ways to do that: not at all, Orwell...

Orwell was a pacifist but s realist ....
“Sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield.”