Non-functional HEV

[Chocodove]

So outside of Rolex, Panerai and Seiko no one else test each and every watch?

Certina has the DS Action Diver that is also ISO 6425.

[craniotes]

It's only necessary to test each piece individually if you're going for full ISO 6425 certification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_watch

I don't think that statement is accurate. It is true that to meet ISO 6425 you must test every piece. But what is "necessary" is subjective.

I'm not sure I follow you here. For a watch to meet ISO 6425 certification as a dive watch, it must be tested individually and meet all the criteria. Mind you, this is a voluntary test, but hey, might as well go all the way since you're paying for it, right? Ultimately, if you don't test the watch, then it ain't a dive watch. Or am I missing something?

Now, on the other hand, ISO 2281 standards for basic water resistance allow for "skip-lot" testing, where a representative example can be tested, thus passing the entire batch.

Yes, all true. However, a manufacturer may choose to not pursue ISO 6425 certification, yet want to test every piece for quality assurance for its own sake. Minor semantic point, not a big deal.

Good point.

And for those wondering, I know that these following manufactures make ISO 6425 compliant divers: JLC, Blancpain, Cartier (yes, the Calibre de Cartier Diver is fully tested), AP (not the Scuba series or the new ceramic Diver, though), IWC... Obviously there are more, but these I know for sure.

Regards,
Adam

[Panerai7]

Cool so there are more then I thought.
I wonder if Omega tests their SMP and PO

[craniotes]

Cool so there are more then I thought.
I wonder if Omega tests their SMP and PO

I'm fairly certain that Omega's divers are individually tested and certified, but I don't know for sure.

Regards,
Adam

PS - Also, the G-Shock Frogman is ISO 6425 certified. In fact, it's the only model line within G-Shock that is (hence the name "Frogman").

[foodle]

Cool so there are more then I thought.
I wonder if Omega tests their SMP and PO

Omega's water resistance guide says that each watch is tested to the rated depth. So they are doing it right.

This is the kind of fly by night BS that has me very leery of micros.

[JDC222]

I don't know about you guys, but I find an HEV indispensable.

Hairy Elizabethan Vagina ????

Geez Hop, it's Huge Ethiopian Vagina...Get it right!

[dnslater]

Sinn has its own testing standards but they only say "The tests are repeated at regular intervals on all of these watches in order to document the consistency of the quality."

[Terpits]

I don't know about you guys, but I find an HEV indispensable.

Hairy Elizabethan Vagina ????

Geez Hop, it's Huge Ethiopian Vagina...Get it right!

Hottentot's Elongated Vulva

[Dedalus]

...but my focus is on refining what I have, and producing the new model.
Which by the way I have a lot to say about in the coming few weeks.

Best thing to come out of this thread.

Regards,
Adam

Big +1

[t20569cald]

I'd love to know the pressure testing standards for a lot of the micros as well. Some I wouldn't question, like SAS and Aegir, but some of the others...

Not that I'd ever need it, but I see it as false advertising if the testing isn't legit.

At this point, I can not afford to purchase testing equipment to do each and every watch to 1000M.
Not with my other expenses vs sales. But I will when I can.
In the prototype stage, it was tested, and backed up with the math.

I do however, personally test each and every one of them to 50M to prove the seal.

No offense, but that's actually very concerning. There's a big difference between functional test (does the design meet specs) and manufacturing test (does each instance of the design meet specs). In my field, there's no way a manufacturer would get away with only doing functional test. They would be out of business in a minute.

No offence taken, but ''concerning'' would be if you if your hanging on a shot line doing an 18m deco stop when a 5M Tiger shark shows up looking angry, look down to see how long you have left and find your watch flooded.
You thought the multitude of 2000 and 3000M cases turning up were all tested to 125% before leaving in the post? I bet most watches you ever owned have not been, regardless of brand. I say most.
That 12000M watch of Bell and Ross, do they have a tester to 12,000, or if they care of ISO then 16000M? I do not know, but I would be impressed to see it, as I have never seen such a deep tester myself. I doubt it though.
Rolex made a pretty big deal, saying they are testing each and everyone of the Deep Sea watches, but never bothered to mention the normal Sew Dweller or Subs.
Just saying.
I would love to be able to test, for my own satisfaction, and will, but I have other expense's in the business more pressing.
I think the faith that people put into mainstream brands, to do the testing on each and every watch is misguided and they get away with so much for this reason. Maybe, Rolex does every one of every WR watch they make, out of the 1 million watches a year, but I personally doubt it.
I think you might get a shock if all were upfront.

[t20569cald]

I seriously doubt Fulswing and the others are testing their cases to 2000M. I could be wrong

But even if they were, it would not be sufficient. The watch needs to be tested after final assembly, since anything in the manufacturing process could cause a problem. I was not aware that it is not standard procedure for micros to test each watch to the rated depth. That's very concerning.

I'm assuming that the major manufacturers (e.g. Rolex, Omega) do test each watch after final assembly, right?

I only know that Rolex/Tudor and Panerai do, I'm sure the other big guys test as well.

How sure?

[foodle]

Maybe, Rolex does every one of every WR watch they make, out of the 1 million watches a year, but I personally doubt it.
I think you might get a shock if all were upfront.

From aBlogtoWatch:
After being air pressure tested, Rolex proceeds to test the water resistance of each and every Rolex Submariner and Deep Sea watch in actual water.
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/10-things-k ... watches/2/

The Omega literature says that each of their dive watches are individually tested to spec also.

I would imagine they would get into significant trouble if this was found to be untrue. What are you basing your doubts on?

[t20569cald]

Cool so there are more then I thought.
I wonder if Omega tests their SMP and PO

Omega's water resistance guide says that each watch is tested to the rated depth. So they are doing it right.

This is the kind of fly by night BS that has me very leery of micros.

Its fly by night bullshit, when one of them says they do it, and do not. Not everyone starts out with the means to purchase such tester.
I know two certified Rolex repairers who do not have the equipment to test a sub or Sea Dweller.
Maybe Rolex should have provided them with such a thing, or at least made sure they had the capability? because they represent Rolex after all.

Its more likely your watch will,leak at 10M than it is at 100M, so if the design is proven and tested in R&D, and the seal is confirmed, what then is fly by night bullshit?
I am shocked you thought everyone did it. Where would one by a 3000M tester? Roxer would be special order I think.

[t20569cald]

Maybe, Rolex does every one of every WR watch they make, out of the 1 million watches a year, but I personally doubt it.
I think you might get a shock if all were upfront.

From aBlogtoWatch:
After being air pressure tested, Rolex proceeds to test the water resistance of each and every Rolex Submariner and Deep Sea watch in actual water.
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/10-things-k ... watches/2/

The Omega literature says that each of their dive watches are individually tested to spec also.

I would imagine they would get into significant trouble if this was found to be untrue. What are you basing your doubts on?

Well, two big companies that trade on dive watch history, fair enough. But you think all brands do this?

[foodle]

No offence taken, but ''concerning'' would be if you if your hanging on a shot line doing an 18m deco stop when a 5M Tiger shark shows up looking angry.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. There are many situations in life that are of more significant import than whether my watch has been tested as thoroughly as I'd expected.

You thought the multitude of 2000 and 3000M cases turning up were all tested to 125% before leaving in the post? I bet most watches you ever owned have not been, regardless of brand. I say most.

I suppose I naively expected watch manufacturers to adhere to as rigorous testing methodology as is used in my professional life. Clearly I was not correct in assuming that. I guess I'm buying Rolex from now on ...

[manitoujoe]

^^ +1

No way do all the companies do this. They may SAY they do it. They make test 1-2 per batch, but no way for a million watches. Ridiculous. I'm with Todd on this.

[t20569cald]

^^ +1

No way do all the companies do this. They may SAY they do it. They make test 1-2 per batch, but no way for a million watches. Ridiculous. I'm with Todd on this.

I will give him the modern day Rolex doing it, they did after all make a statement with their tester built by Comex. And they have the money, but other brands turning out as many watches, no.
I am on the fence for Omega
I cant see Bell&Ross having a Comex type tester, especially 10 years ago, and many , many other mainstream brands

[Torrid]

^^ +1

No way do all the companies do this. They may SAY they do it. They make test 1-2 per batch, but no way for a million watches. Ridiculous. I'm with Todd on this.

If it's certified then it had to be tested to 125% of its marked pressure.

[t20569cald]

^^ +1

No way do all the companies do this. They may SAY they do it. They make test 1-2 per batch, but no way for a million watches. Ridiculous. I'm with Todd on this.

If it's certified then it had to be tested to 125% of its marked pressure.

Rolex never said they were ISO certified, nor does Omega. They do their own tests. But for sure, you are right.

ISO certified watches are few and far between, and that is not an issue, because a few people sitting in an office coming up with tests, functions, etc, that likely put their feet in the water at best, means nothing to me. I dived years with a Panerai Marina, it has no timing bezel, and makes it not a divers watch in the eyes of ISO. Well, I was a diver, it dived with me, that makes it a divers watch to me.

[BSears]

No offence taken, but ''concerning'' would be if you if your hanging on a shot line doing an 18m deco stop when a 5M Tiger shark shows up looking angry.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. There are many situations in life that are of more significant import than whether my watch has been tested as thoroughly as I'd expected.

If that were the case, then why did you shit all over this thread?

You thought the multitude of 2000 and 3000M cases turning up were all tested to 125% before leaving in the post? I bet most watches you ever owned have not been, regardless of brand. I say most.

I suppose I naively expected watch manufacturers to adhere to as rigorous testing methodology as is used in my professional life. Clearly I was not correct in assuming that. I guess I'm buying Rolex from now on ...

[t20569cald]

No offence taken, but ''concerning'' would be if you if your hanging on a shot line doing an 18m deco stop when a 5M Tiger shark shows up looking angry.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. There are many situations in life that are of more significant import than whether my watch has been tested as thoroughly as I'd expected.

If that were the case, then why did you shit all over this thread?

You thought the multitude of 2000 and 3000M cases turning up were all tested to 125% before leaving in the post? I bet most watches you ever owned have not been, regardless of brand. I say most.

I suppose I naively expected watch manufacturers to adhere to as rigorous testing methodology as is used in my professional life. Clearly I was not correct in assuming that. I guess I'm buying Rolex from now on ...

Its the only chance I get to debate a topic, when this type of thing comes up. Makes for more interesting thread with a little lively back and forth, so I am happy he did make the comment.
Makes my morning. But the topic at hand was fake HEV's which I couldn't get info on over at WUS. I was curios to see it

[foodle]

so if the design is proven and tested in R&D, and the seal is confirmed, what then is fly by night bullshit?

Multiple issues here. First, that the design is shown to be water resistant to a certain pressure is not the same as showing that the instance of that design on my wrist is resistant to that pressure, since there can me manufacturing variations, assembly errors, materials defects, etc. Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "proven" here, especially since in an earlier post, you allude to being "backed up by the math". Mathematical/analytical modeling is just that, modeling. No modeling is ever absolutely accurate as modeling excludes some second/third/fourth/etc. order effects that are deemed insignificant. However, the history of engineering is replete with examples of product failures due to modeling errors where effects deemed insignificant came back to bite the designers. Third, the seal is confirmed at a lower pressure, but that's not necessarily a guarantee that it will be good at a higher pressure. The failures here aren't necessarily binary (e.g., seal fails at 10m or never).

On the other hand, functional test is always more rigorous than manufacturing test. Manufacturing test has to factor in test time, test cost, and how it affects throughput/yield/bottom-line. I suppose it's a good thing that most dive watches shipped won't ever encounter conditions near their rated pressures. So whether it's rated at 200m or 3000m, it'll survive a dip in the pool just fine.

I am shocked you thought everyone did it. Where would one by a 3000M tester? Roxer would be special order I think.

Obviously you have more insight into the industry than I do, and yes, I was naive to think that a watch rated at 2000m had every instance tested at that depth.

[Torrid]

^^ +1

No way do all the companies do this. They may SAY they do it. They make test 1-2 per batch, but no way for a million watches. Ridiculous. I'm with Todd on this.

If it's certified then it had to be tested to 125% of its marked pressure.

Rolex never said they were ISO certified, nor does Omega. They do their own tests. But for sure, you are right.

ISO certified watches are few and far between, and that is not an issue, because a few people sitting in an office coming up with tests, functions, etc, that likely put their feet in the water at best, means nothing to me. I dived years with a Panerai Marina, it has no timing bezel, and makes it not a divers watch in the eyes of ISO. Well, I was a diver, it dived with me, that makes it a divers watch to me.

Interesting that they wouldn't go for ISO when Seiko does it for every 200m watch marked Diver's and can be had around $200.

[foodle]

No offence taken, but ''concerning'' would be if you if your hanging on a shot line doing an 18m deco stop when a 5M Tiger shark shows up looking angry.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. There are many situations in life that are of more significant import than whether my watch has been tested as thoroughly as I'd expected.

If that were the case, then why did you shit all over this thread?

Shit all over the thread? I would think DWC would be interested in the issues involving pressure testing of watches, both technical and practical/economic from the manufacturer's point of view. I very much appreciate the informative responses.

[Chocodove]

^^ +1

No way do all the companies do this. They may SAY they do it. They make test 1-2 per batch, but no way for a million watches. Ridiculous. I'm with Todd on this.

If it's certified then it had to be tested to 125% of its marked pressure.

Rolex never said they were ISO certified, nor does Omega. They do their own tests. But for sure, you are right.

ISO certified watches are few and far between, and that is not an issue, because a few people sitting in an office coming up with tests, functions, etc, that likely put their feet in the water at best, means nothing to me. I dived years with a Panerai Marina, it has no timing bezel, and makes it not a divers watch in the eyes of ISO. Well, I was a diver, it dived with me, that makes it a divers watch to me.

Interesting that they wouldn't go for ISO when Seiko does it for every 200m watch marked Diver's and can be had around $200.

Probably of the opinion of "what we say is just fine, and actually better".

Until they realize the marketing potential of an ISO rated watch.