So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by moishlashen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:58 pm

Rolex processes are so mature I wouldn't doubt it. How long did it take them to use their own main spring-years and thats not even counting design and development. They had to prove they could make them in sufficient numbers etc-and be profitable- to plug right into their line.
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:00 pm

Mind you, I'm not knocking Rolex movements -- Lord knows they've earned their reputation for accuracy, robustness and longevity the hard way.

If I were asked to outfit an extended stay on a deserted island, a Rolex of some sort would be on the list.

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by belligero » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:18 pm

craniotes wrote:C'mon, Ryan, they're as automated and efficient as ETA, and they're just as vertically integrated.

Trust me, they have this shit down to a science; same goes for their marketing machine.

Regards,
Adam
Marketing I'll leave aside, but there's no way that a 3135 has the same production cost as ETA's 2892 — though I'm not so familiar with the produced-for-IWC version so I won't comment on it. There are many factors that make Rolex's movement the more difficult one to produce, but it essentially comes down to better design (full balance bridge, free-sprung balance wheel), better materials (Glucydur vs. brass gears, hardened steel pivots, Parachrom balance spring), better finishing (though still machine-finished) and stricter manufacturing tolerances. They're most certainly mass-produced in an efficient manner, but those terminal curves on the Breguet overcoils don't bend themselves, man!

Anyway, the real question here is why doesn't it have a sapphire back to prevent harmful magnetic rays from getting trapped inside the case, like a proper modern Ingenieur should? ;)
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:29 pm

Trust me, that "better" design isn't built with tighter tolerances, nor is the machine finishing any better than what you'll find on a top-grade ETA. Also, their rotor mounts are positively antediluvian. As for the Glucydur balance, those can be found in ETAs as well, and yes, I'm sure that Rolex has figured out how to get the terminal curves in the Breguet hairspring to bend themselves. ;)

But seriously, should Rolex movements cost more to manufacture than their ETA counterparts? Perhaps, but given how long Rolex has been making them and how efficient they've become at doing so, I'm sure that overhead expended for R&D, factory space and tooling has long since been paid off; now they're just printing money.

Hey, they aren't the most valuable luxury brand in the world for nothing. :shrug:

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by Kustoms4ever » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:54 pm

craniotes wrote:Trust me, that "better" design isn't built with tighter tolerances, nor is the machine finishing any better than what you'll find on a top-grade ETA. Also, their rotor mounts are positively antediluvian. As for the Glucydur balance, those can be found in ETAs as well, and yes, I'm sure that Rolex has figured out how to get the terminal curves in the Breguet hairspring to bend themselves. ;)

But seriously, should Rolex movements cost more to manufacture than their ETA counterparts? Perhaps, but given how long Rolex has been making them and how efficient they've become at doing so, I'm sure that overhead expended for R&D, factory space and tooling has long since been paid off; now they're just printing money.

Hey, they aren't the most valuable luxury brand in the world for nothing. :shrug:

Regards,
Adam

If going by what you said..Does that mean the old Omega 2892-2 movement is the same if not better then the Rolex 3135...
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by dukerules » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Doesn't really matter to me how much it costs Rolex to make its movements (and I'm sure that if the per-piece manufacturing costs aren't actually less than those of some of the decent ETA movements, they're close). Rolex makes what I consider to be great movements, and I'll pay extra for them. Yes, the in-house superiority idea is a bit of a farce, at least for lower-end in-house movements, but a 2824, 2892, or 7750 just doesn't excite me like a 3135 does. Guess I'm just a victim of Rolex marketing.

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by matt.wu » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:56 pm

Kustoms4ever wrote:
craniotes wrote:Trust me, that "better" design isn't built with tighter tolerances, nor is the machine finishing any better than what you'll find on a top-grade ETA. Also, their rotor mounts are positively antediluvian. As for the Glucydur balance, those can be found in ETAs as well, and yes, I'm sure that Rolex has figured out how to get the terminal curves in the Breguet hairspring to bend themselves. ;)

But seriously, should Rolex movements cost more to manufacture than their ETA counterparts? Perhaps, but given how long Rolex has been making them and how efficient they've become at doing so, I'm sure that overhead expended for R&D, factory space and tooling has long since been paid off; now they're just printing money.

Hey, they aren't the most valuable luxury brand in the world for nothing. :shrug:

Regards,
Adam

If going by what you said..Does that mean the old Omega 2892-2 movement is the same if not better then the Rolex 3135...
Everything with a grain of salt, Johnny. ;)

I've read people who are absolutely convinced of each side of the argument. :cheers:
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:11 pm

Kustoms4ever wrote:If going by what you said..Does that mean the old Omega 2892-2 movement is the same if not better then the Rolex 3135...
They are quite different in conception, however the question of which one is "better" has been debated by those far smarter and more technically inclined than I am. Personally, I love me a good 3135, and like Rahul said, I'll pay more for it, but ultimately that doesn't make it a superior movement. Yes, it incorporates things like Breguet overcoils and antimagnetic hairsprings, and yes, it sports a free-sprung balance, all of which are hallmarks of more exclusive movements, but these in and of themselves do not mean that a properly regulated 2892, or even a 2824 can't be just as accurate and reliable. Fine, but does this mean that The 3135 should be more expensive? Again, perhaps, but if so, not by a whole lot simply because Rolex has had decades to figure this ish out. Where other companies have people manufacturing this stuff, Rolex has robots. Lots of them.

So, with that said, why would I still shell out more for the 3135? Marketing, for one (yes, I've been indoctrinated from an early age to believe that Rolex is the best of the best of the best, and deprogramming takes time), and for the other, experience (my 16800 went 13 years without a service and the only reason I brought it in was because my wife dropped it on concrete from a height of 6'; even then it still ran for a month).

YMMV.

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by belligero » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:13 pm

craniotes wrote:Trust me, that "better" design isn't built with tighter tolerances, nor is the machine finishing any better than what you'll find on a top-grade ETA. Also, their rotor mounts are positively antediluvian. As for the Glucydur balance, those can be found in ETAs as well, and yes, I'm sure that Rolex has figured out how to get the terminal curves in the Breguet hairspring to bend themselves. ;)

But seriously, should Rolex movements cost more to manufacture than their ETA counterparts? Perhaps, but given how long Rolex has been making them and how efficient they've become at doing so, I'm sure that overhead expended for R&D, factory space and tooling has long since been paid off; now they're just printing money.

Hey, they aren't the most valuable luxury brand in the world for nothing. :shrug:

Regards,
Adam
Ah, this stuff isn't my professional field, but it's the kind of thing that, as an uber nerd, I talk about during the weekly beer session with my WOSTEP-certified watchmaker pal, and he seems pretty convinced about it.

The hardening of steel pivots is exclusive to Rolex (as far as I know). Also, I'm talking about Glucydur not only in the balance wheel, but also in the gear train. The rotor mount is a design decision for winding efficiency that they've stuck with, but they switched to a bearing system in the 4130 and the newer complicated movements, so that could change. The plain axle system isn't as bad as the internet experts make it out to be, though... it's an extremely tough design, and the axle itself is designed to be replaced during service as a wear item; the part costs about $10 and you're good to go for another decade-plus.

The terminal curve is actually a perfect example of how hardcore this company actually is, which is a lot more than I assumed back when I drank the WUSsy "Rolex-sux-get-a-Grand-Seiko-instead" kool-aid. They actually do bend those things by hand, under a microscope, no less. In fact, the way they make their own hairsprings starting from raw materials has got to be a significant additional cost. Well, that and the absolutely massive new production facility they just put up in Bienne a few months ago. They're a seriously impressive company, although they obviously wouldn't be able to afford this stuff if they weren't raking in cash by the bucketload. But there's still plenty to appreciate for someone with an interest in watchmaking, which was a genuine surprise to me back when I thought they were all about the marketing.
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:18 pm

Color me impressed; not only with Rolex, but also with you, Mr. Watch Nerd.

Fine, the 3135 costs more than the 2892. ;)

Regards,
Adam

PS - Those dudes on the microscopes must go insane after a while (a million movements a year is no joke).

PPS - Hey, Kustom, check this link out for more on the 3135 vs. 2892 debate: http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by belligero » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:28 pm

craniotes wrote:Color me impressed; not only with Rolex, but also with you, Mr. Watch Nerd.

Fine, the 3135 costs more than the 2892. ;)

Regards,
Adam

PS - Those dudes on the microscopes must go insane after a while (a million movements a year is no joke).
Heh, thanks. :cheers: I'm guessing that the guys and gals who do the microscope and world's-smallest-tweezers (and I'm not even joking about that) work aren't big partyers on weekday nights. Must be a Swiss thing.

Wait a sec... is this an internet debate that's actually led somewhere!? I'd better go check the news for reports of hell freezing over or something similarly ominous.
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:35 pm

belligero wrote:
craniotes wrote:Color me impressed; not only with Rolex, but also with you, Mr. Watch Nerd.

Fine, the 3135 costs more than the 2892. ;)

Regards,
Adam

PS - Those dudes on the microscopes must go insane after a while (a million movements a year is no joke).
Heh, thanks. :cheers: I'm guessing that the guys and gals who do the microscope and world's-smallest-tweezers (and I'm not even joking about that) work aren't big partyers on weekday nights. Must be a Swiss thing.

Wait a sec... is this an internet debate that's actually led somewhere!? I'd better go check the news for reports of hell freezing over or something similarly ominous.
Well, it is kinda chilly here in Sodom (aka, NYC)... :shrug:

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by belligero » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:39 pm

craniotes wrote:PPS - Hey, Kustom, check this link out for more on the 3135 vs. 2892 debate: http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html
Hint: the "A" stands for "amateur". This guy manages to find flaws that don't actually exist (well at least not in a non-water-damaged movement), while downplaying or completely overlooking every single thing that makes the Rolex movement universally considered superior among pro watchmakers. I know how nerdy this is going to sound, but I've actually discussed this very article with my drinking buddy and he's shocked that it has credibility on the internet.
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by jimyritz » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:40 pm

craniotes wrote:Yes, the Aquatimer is up next.

My only fear is that if they go in-house the price is going to get really stupid.

Regards,
Adam
============

No kidding, any ideas what they will look like?

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:46 pm

belligero wrote:
craniotes wrote:PPS - Hey, Kustom, check this link out for more on the 3135 vs. 2892 debate: http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html
Hint: the "A" stands for "amateur". This guy manages to find flaws that don't actually exist (well at least not in a non-water-damaged movement), while downplaying or completely overlooking every single thing that makes the Rolex movement universally considered superior among pro watchmakers. I know how nerdy this is going to sound, but I've actually discussed this very article with my drinking buddy and he's shocked that it has credibility on the internet.
It's an oldie, but a goodie. If you want another opinion on Rolex quality, look up Walt Odets. ;)

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by dukerules » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:46 pm

craniotes wrote:
belligero wrote:
craniotes wrote:PPS - Hey, Kustom, check this link out for more on the 3135 vs. 2892 debate: http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html
Hint: the "A" stands for "amateur". This guy manages to find flaws that don't actually exist (well at least not in a non-water-damaged movement), while downplaying or completely overlooking every single thing that makes the Rolex movement universally considered superior among pro watchmakers. I know how nerdy this is going to sound, but I've actually discussed this very article with my drinking buddy and he's shocked that it has credibility on the internet.
It's an oldie, but a goodie. If you want another opinion on Rolex quality, look up Walt Odets. ;)

Regards,
Adam
Oh boy... :snooty:

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:46 pm

jimyritz wrote:
craniotes wrote:Yes, the Aquatimer is up next.

My only fear is that if they go in-house the price is going to get really stupid.

Regards,
Adam
============

No kidding, any ideas what they will look like?
No word on it yet. Don't worry, as soon I find anything out you guys'll be the first to know.

Regards,
Adam
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:47 pm

dukerules wrote:
craniotes wrote:
belligero wrote:
craniotes wrote:PPS - Hey, Kustom, check this link out for more on the 3135 vs. 2892 debate: http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html
Hint: the "A" stands for "amateur". This guy manages to find flaws that don't actually exist (well at least not in a non-water-damaged movement), while downplaying or completely overlooking every single thing that makes the Rolex movement universally considered superior among pro watchmakers. I know how nerdy this is going to sound, but I've actually discussed this very article with my drinking buddy and he's shocked that it has credibility on the internet.
It's an oldie, but a goodie. If you want another opinion on Rolex quality, look up Walt Odets. ;)

Regards,
Adam
Oh boy... :snooty:
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :bootyshake:

Regards,
Adam
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by belligero » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:56 pm

craniotes wrote:
dukerules wrote:
craniotes wrote:It's an oldie, but a goodie. If you want another opinion on Rolex quality, look up Walt Odets. ;)

Regards,
Adam
Oh boy... :snooty:
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :bootyshake:

Regards,
Adam
Yeah, I know all about that one. It was one of the first things I read about the company's movements, or watches in general, and it soured me on them for almost ten years. It turns out that Odets doesn't really know what he's talking about, though, which is obvious from some very basic technical mistakes in the article. He does a real disservice (unintentionally) to people who take it as an expert's opinion, which he most certainly is not. To be fair, the Cal. 3000 wasn't exactly Rolex's best work either, which is likely why it had one of the shortest production runs of any movement they've made.
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by Kustoms4ever » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:19 pm

matt.wu wrote:
Kustoms4ever wrote:
craniotes wrote:Trust me, that "better" design isn't built with tighter tolerances, nor is the machine finishing any better than what you'll find on a top-grade ETA. Also, their rotor mounts are positively antediluvian. As for the Glucydur balance, those can be found in ETAs as well, and yes, I'm sure that Rolex has figured out how to get the terminal curves in the Breguet hairspring to bend themselves. ;)

But seriously, should Rolex movements cost more to manufacture than their ETA counterparts? Perhaps, but given how long Rolex has been making them and how efficient they've become at doing so, I'm sure that overhead expended for R&D, factory space and tooling has long since been paid off; now they're just printing money.

Hey, they aren't the most valuable luxury brand in the world for nothing. :shrug:

Regards,
Adam

If going by what you said..Does that mean the old Omega 2892-2 movement is the same if not better then the Rolex 3135...




Everything with a grain of salt, Johnny. ;)

I've read people who are absolutely convinced of each side of the argument. :cheers:

Oh I know Matt.. I was trying to rib Adam thats all... :cheers:


Honestly this is what I love about the DWC... Unlike WUS and other places we can all talk like adults about this stuff...
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by Kustoms4ever » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:28 pm

craniotes wrote:
Kustoms4ever wrote:If going by what you said..Does that mean the old Omega 2892-2 movement is the same if not better then the Rolex 3135...
They are quite different in conception, however the question of which one is "better" has been debated by those far smarter and more technically inclined than I am. Personally, I love me a good 3135, and like Rahul said, I'll pay more for it, but ultimately that doesn't make it a superior movement. Yes, it incorporates things like Breguet overcoils and antimagnetic hairsprings, and yes, it sports a free-sprung balance, all of which are hallmarks of more exclusive movements, but these in and of themselves do not mean that a properly regulated 2892, or even a 2824 can't be just as accurate and reliable. Fine, but does this mean that The 3135 should be more expensive? Again, perhaps, but if so, not by a whole lot simply because Rolex has had decades to figure this ish out. Where other companies have people manufacturing this stuff, Rolex has robots. Lots of them.

So, with that said, why would I still shell out more for the 3135? Marketing, for one (yes, I've been indoctrinated from an early age to believe that Rolex is the best of the best of the best, and deprogramming takes time), and for the other, experience (my 16800 went 13 years without a service and the only reason I brought it in was because my wife dropped it on concrete from a height of 6'; even then it still ran for a month).

YMMV.

Regards,
Adam
I do agree with the Marketing aspect but for me and this is true with anyone that makes movements is the overhead had to be huge...So with that said what do you think a price of a 2892-2 or 3135 costs to make....
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My other hobby. My 1954 Lincoln Capri Full Custom.

“The Royal Oak was the first of its kind. 40 years later, it remains unmatched amongst prestige sport watches. This is only the beginning of an authentic icon that is making an indelible imprint on the history of modern watchmaking."

-François-Henry Bennahmias, CEO of Audemars Piguet,

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by goaliechris » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:30 pm

I wish I liked the new line but I just don't.

Oh well, continue saving for the BP anyway.

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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by lorsban » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:42 pm

$6500? They must be joking. Why would I pay $6500 for a watch with a movement I can find in +-$1000 watches? Who do they think they are, Panerai?

The Ingenieur AMG is still available for less money and is a far better value with a Pellaton movement.



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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by snoballz » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:12 pm

I've got nothing really to add but to say that someone has to pay for all the free chocolate and espresso that a certain someone consumes each Friday. :banplz:

Just sayin'. :stir: :lol:
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Re: So, $6,500 for the new 40 mm IWC Ingenieur?

Post by craniotes » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:15 pm

Old Walt actually does know a thing or two about watches, and the movement he reviewed was definitely unnacceptable. However, what folks don't know is that he was biased somewhat out of the gate because he was more accustomed to inspecting hand-finished movements from the likes of Patek and Audemars. Also, he wasn't as down on the movement as it sounded, and a subsequent review was much more favorable.

Ultimately, however, he regretted ever posting what is probably the most infamous watch review ever made. ;)

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